#53 - Tom: Drug Induced Paranoia, Psychosis, Cocaine Addiction, Disease of Alcoholism, Genetic Predispositions, Recovery Struggles, Suicide Battles & Only One Reason To Get Clean

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This is a Renew Original Record.

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Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a British podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma.

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My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or, as I like to say, your facilitator.

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Today I'm with Tom, a former talent agent, who shares his deeply personal journey through addiction and recovery.

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He discusses how, despite outward success, ending up to £30,000 a month and living in a central London apartment, his life spiralled due to a cocaine addiction.

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He recalls using drugs on the night.

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His newborn daughter came home from the hospital, as well as losing his job, home, relationships and, eventually, his daughter's trust.

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Tom recounts episodes of paranoia and psychosis brought on by his drug use and the deep shame and guilt that followed.

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He reflects on how his addiction destroyed his ability to be a father, but expresses a renewed hope, emphasizing that recovery is not just about staying sober but also about rebuilding relationships and accountability.

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Tom, thank you so much for coming on the believing people podcast.

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It is a it's a pleasure to have you here.

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Thank you very much.

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Uh, I'm.

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I'm gonna jump straight into it, tom, because I've got a quote here that you said to um, my producer, which I found.

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It's a paraphrase as well, which I found really interesting.

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You said you had everything.

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You've got a central london apartment, 30 000 pound a month, a model girlfriend, and then things happened.

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Let's talk a little bit about that first.

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Well, externally, I think I, you know, had an envious life, um, and what I never understood was, despite having I guess what one could call cash and prizes, I was miserable and I didn't understand why I'd wake up in the morning and wish I hadn't woken up, and I didn't understand it.

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I couldn't get why I felt so irritable, restless and discontent.

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Is, uh, the disease of alcoholism, addiction and um, it's people, places and things don't fix me or won't fix me.

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And I was always thinking if this happens or that happens, I go there or I'll, I'll get better, you know, um, but it never worked um.

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What I've learned again is it's an internal fix.

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You know I'm the problem, so I need to change.

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Um, I think a good example, or the best example I can give, of thinking an external thing will fix me is when my then girlfriend got pregnant.

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Um, I was obviously over the moon and this was it when my child was born.

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I would get sober um, it's the best reason to get sober, surely to having a child.

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The night my daughter came home from the hospital, I lived a few doors down from some people that I knew.

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They were outside on their stoop, um, and they, you know, oh, look, here's my daughter.

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And oh, have you got anything?

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I picked up, and the night my daughter came home from hospital, I was in the laboratory snorting cocaine.

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Um, it's, you know, it's not my fault, I have an illness, but it's my responsibility to do something about it.

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Um, but, yeah it, you know.

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Um, as I said, people, patients and things won't fix me.

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I have to change myself.

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Talk to to me about the actual job, then what was it you was doing to be earning, I mean, 30,000 a month is a ridiculous amount, I mean that was the top end of it.

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It was anywhere between 10 and 30.

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I used to be a talent agent.

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I used to look after actors.

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When I say look after them, it wasn't really me that was doing it.

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Um, when I say look after them, it wasn't really me that was doing it, um I.

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But what was great or not so great, because it gave me free reign to use was that I would find clients and partner with agents out in Los Angeles who would do all the work, but I'd still take the commission.

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Um, I had a daughter's.

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My daughter's mom was a phenomenal mom still is, so my daughter was absolutely cared and looked after.

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So I had no responsibility.

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I mean, I did, but I didn't take any responsibility.

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You didn't feel like you had the responsibility.

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Yeah, I could get away with it.

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Yeah, I could use and there were no consequences.

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Was that because you was the one bringing the money in, that you felt that way you're bringing the 10 to 30?

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No, it's not.

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It wasn't that it was, you know, I, it was the fact that I didn't have to do anything, like I had these clients that were working and busy, working, you know, series, regulars and in us tv shows or whatever.

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Um, my daughter was cared for, so I didn't have to be in the office between nine and five every day because the money was coming in anyway and so I could use and make up, manipulate and lie oh, I'm really ill, I've got stomach ache.

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I mean, my poor bosses must have were really worried about my health, you know, because I would just lie and say that I was ill, you know.

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So I got away with it for a long, long time until I didn't, you know, and my life, which was a house of cards, came crashing down and all the consequences you know losing my girlfriend, losing that job, losing my flat, losing my daughter, most importantly, friends and family.

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Absolutely rightly, they wanted nothing more to do with me.

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Um, all came very at once and, um, well, I say I lost them, my I liked.

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Well, I'm told that I never lost anything.

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I traded them all for drugs and at the time that was the best deal for me yeah, it was it because of the job that you was using substances, or was this something that was happening to do with the job?

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I mean it wouldn't matter what I was doing.

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I could be a politician, I could be, you know, a life coach.

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It doesn't matter.

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You know I was.

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You know um would use whatever the weather.

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It could be a Tuesday afternoon and.

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I'd use.

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You know, I don't need an excuse.

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What was the thoughts and feelings you was experiencing when you'd use?

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So it is something that I've had before.

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People who was you know when they said trying to get abstinent and they said, next thing, I know, just for routine, without even realising it, I'm sat there with, you know, a needle going into my veins and, like I planned my day around not using, but suddenly it's somehow happened.

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Can you relate to that with cocaine use?

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I can cocaine.

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Yes, I can relate somewhat.

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Um, you know, I said to myself this is it, I'm done.

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When I'd wake up after my body just gave up after, because I'd go on for days.

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Um, you know, it got vile and depraved, you know.

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I mean, you know, up to 10 grams of cocaine a day.

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My nose is inside of my nose is falling out.

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Um, and then, you know, and my body would just give out, and then I wake up and I'd be that's it, I'm done, I'm done.

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And then I get this.

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What I believe, you know, it's the mental side of the illness, an obsession to use.

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Not that I am, obviously, but it's like a vampire's thirst for blood.

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I can't do without it.

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It goes from my head, all I could use to my stomach, and then it's a physical feeling I have to have it.

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I can't.

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Nothing will get in the way.

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I will do anything to have it.

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I can't, nothing will get in the way.

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I will do anything to get it.

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Like I'd never had to commit crime because I had money.

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But you know I would if I was out for dinner with my daughter and I suddenly thought I'm done, I'm off, I've got to go, you know, um, and then I pick up, you know, and often I'll be like I'll'll just get this, this certain amount and that will be it.

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You know, despite my experience, that once I start I can't stop and you know it could go.

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The worst it ever got was probably around September, october, november, 2020, when the cocaine turned to crack.

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2020, when the cocaine turned to crack, and it was two and a half months.

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I mean obviously slept, but you know I couldn't eat anything.

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It was jars of baby food because that's all I could stomach tiny sips of water.

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Um, you know, and I'll be honest, you know it got so bad, you know I'd piss into bottles, I'd barricade myself into my room, you know, get absolutely paranoid, holding a knife in my hand, staring at the crack at the door for hours and slowly lifting the pipe, and often I'm so paranoid it would pop out and I'd have to wait.

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There is anyone coming, you know, and he'd jump at the slightest noise.

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You know every noise becomes bomb, blast, loud, and I'm absolutely paranoid to the hilt and you know I would couldn't leave the, you know, ladders and chairs up against the door double locked.

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My front door is double locked and something up against it so I could hear if anyone would try and get in and I'd be staring at the door handle to see if it's moving um, and I'd defecate into bin liners because I couldn't leave the flat, so it stank.

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And this went on for two and a half months.

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It was like I can't you know, tens of thousands of pounds, two, three months, all my savings gone, because I can't stop I want to.

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There's a couple of things I want to pick up on that, because you've described a really insightful way of what it's like to have that edge, that that feeling you said going from mind to body.

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I've heard it said before and you know, when we talk about the stigma of addiction and people not understanding addiction, sometimes it's being criticized as a lack of of willpower as opposed to the disease in which you're saying it is.

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I sorry, I totally disagree with that, absolutely.

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This is what I mean, this is what I'd like to talk about massive amounts of willpower, yeah, concerned with everything else, but with mind-altering substances, absolutely none.

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But.

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But to me, the drugs weren't the problem, they were the solution, you know, the solution to what I genuinely believe is a disease that wants me dead but settled to my abject misery.

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It's very difficult, I would imagine, for a normal person to understand, person to understand, because, like unlike any other illness, you know, people get not just the person suffering from it gets really hurt.

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Those closest to you get hit with shrapnel.

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You know, when you blow your life apart, um, unless you have that feeling like an obsession, it's a thought that overrides all other thoughts, um, but it's not a lack of willpower, I mean, you know, not to get political, but the who, the british medical association, america, all classify it as an illness, as a disease, um, and you know I didn't wake up wanting this to happen.

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You know it wasn't my game plan to end up alone in my bedroom with the blinds closed, wanting to die all the time.

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But I was powerless to me, lack of power, I'm powerless over it.

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Cocaine and crack on my master, um yeah so you sound like someone obviously was thought a lot about it.

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Where did the?

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Where do you think the if, if anywhere because you could, you could say you were born with this disease, which I've heard people say before.

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Do you think there is a root cause down to something that's happened in your life that has caused this disease, as a domino effect to something that's happened?

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potentially.

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I mean, there is a school of thought that it's a lot to do with trauma trauma, sorry, um, but I've never experienced abuse or neglect as a child.

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Um, however, you know a lot of people.

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I do, um adhere to the school of thought that maybe it's a lack of love as a child I had.

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You know, I was sent to boarding school at six, so I was away from my family a lot.

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My mother died of alcoholism.

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My oldest sister is a recovering addict, so potentially it, potentially it's genetic.

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But you know there is a school of thought that you know, having a lack of love, not having enough positive, not just negative, influences in your life, like neglect and physical abuse as a child, but not having enough positive influences causes your brain to well, the frontal cortex apparently to maldevelop, and then obviously using drugs and alcohol further, um, you know, destroy the already impaired brain.

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So it becomes less of a choice to use, rather an ability not to.

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So perhaps that lack of that defense that normal people have, for example, from putting their hands on the stove for a second time, we are without that defense, um, so yeah, it's, um, it's interesting because, like I mean, trauma is often the thing that is associated with it.

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But I always say this, that that trauma is subjective and I, for me, personally, like as a kid growing up I was such a mummy's boy I couldn't you know.

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Even sometimes, when I'd sleep over at my friend's house I could find myself waking up even at 9, 10 years old thinking I want to go home, I miss my mum.

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So in a way you could argue that going to a boarding school at six years old, for me, if I think back on my life, I'd have found that traumatic Trauma doesn't necessarily mean that you've been physically abused or sexually abused or do you know, and and to to that level of things.

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For someone that young I, I would find that quite traumatic.

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Going to a boarding school at that age and having, I guess, those feelings of of, as you've said, they're neglecting in some way, that I would have felt neglected yeah, I mean you.

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You know it's very young.

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I mean, I wasn't the only one, obviously.

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Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah and not everyone that goes to boarding school at six becomes an addict, but I think it's probably you know part of the reason.

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Maybe you know, as a way for my family, I felt unloved.

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I had much older sisters than my family.

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Um, I was close with my mom.

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I was never really close with my dad.

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Um, he left the family home when I was 12 or 13,.

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My older sisters had gone off to live their lives.

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So it was often either me at school and back then, you know, you only saw your parents maybe twice a term three times a term and no phone calls.

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It was less writing.

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And then when I came home, it was just me and my mother and she was an alcoholic, so she was, you know, emotionally totally unavailable.

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So, yeah, I wouldn't like to, you know, speculate, I'm not, you know, there isn't a one size fits all that.

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I mean.

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There's the whole thing with this podcast.

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You know the amount of episodes we've done.

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Now everyone's story is different of course there's some similarities that will and like, as you said there, trauma and you know, or some form of abuse can can be sometimes part of people's stories that have led to addiction, but but absolutely you know it's and it's interesting for me have led to addiction.

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But but absolutely you know it's and it's interesting for me on the um other end of, as you said, a normal person, um, to to listen and to learn about these things and how it has impacted that's it, you and other people that have participated in this series, and I find that really interesting to how we, where we, get to this point.

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But going back to what you're saying, around 2020, your life savings, you're earning a lot of money.

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I've got it down here that it was around £70,000 on drugs within three months.

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I think it was honestly around £40,000.

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Still a lot of fucking money in there, really.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And one thing that I want to touch on again is something that we've not really talked about in this series is that drug-induced paranoia.

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Um, and another one I've got here is a quote from yourself saying you started attacking a streetlight because I thought they were aliens.

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That was the last time I used.

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That's talk me through the 18th talk me through like because I've never experienced drug-induced paranoia I've never experienced any form of hallucinogenic substance.

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To see something that isn't there, psychosis.

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You know how fucking terrifying it would be to think you're getting attacked by aliens.

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Absolutely terrifying that my last relapse, which my clean date is November, the 18th 2023.

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The week before that I mean this is a good example of how this disease manifests in me.

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At least I was.

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You know I was working for CGL is I was.

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You know I was working for CGL and suddenly I got a letter from the government or HMRC saying you'll do a tax rebate of quite a lot of you know it's five figures and you know I hadn't earned a lot of money in two, three years.

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So this was quite a lot of money and I was obviously very grateful.

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It's like, great, okay, so I'll do this, I'll do that, and you know.

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And the day came and, um, I was working and the money came into my account and I managed.

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Thank god, I was working that day, um, I sent a little bit of money to my daughter's mom and then I was thinking, okay, so I'll go to oxford street maybe book a holiday or whatever, and I leave work and that voice in my head I've got lots of money.

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If I just picked up something 50 pound lock, I'll be.

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You know, I can stop after that, like that's ever happened.

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And then I don't work on Fridays and then by Monday I'm back to work and no one knows the difference or the different.

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And so, obviously, I picked up and you know, four or five days later, I'm up all night barricaded into my room.

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You know it's the definition of insanity thinking something will be different and it's not.

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Um, and the first part to this, I mean it is terrifying and it's just horrific.

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And you know not to be seek, you know empathy or anything, but it's.

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You know, I was in a place like whole.

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I remember sitting on the edge of my bed right with a big kitchen knife in my hand, staring at the crack at the door, right waiting for someone to come in, and I'm in supported housing at that moment and a knock on my door um, it's the landlord.

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We want you out.

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Okay, we know what's going on.

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None of the other tenants want you here.

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You know what you're doing is illegal.

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You know we're going to call the police and I'm having this conversation with them like please, please, you know I really don't want you to do this.

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I'll clean up, I'm sorry, et cetera, et cetera, just absolutely.

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You know what am I going to do?

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I'm going to get thrown out my window and it's one of my flatmates who lives above me and I open the window and he, um, he's like who are you talking to?

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There's no one there.

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I've gone to complete psychosis and so, okay, I got away with that.

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Two days later I'm still up.

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This is probably five, six days into it.

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You know, I can't quite remember like the exact you know time frame, but you know it's november, it's around four o'clock in the afternoon, you know, and so it gets dark around that time streetlights come on.

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One streetlight had never come on, um, in like six months, but that day it did.

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And I, you know it's clear in my mind this, they're coming to get me.

00:19:46.753 --> 00:19:49.585
That's an alien, it's coming to get me and I can't have that, I need to kill it.

00:19:49.585 --> 00:19:50.228
You know I'm not going to get attacked by an alien.

00:19:50.228 --> 00:19:50.631
So I grab well, I've got the knife in my mind.

00:19:50.631 --> 00:19:51.040
This, they're coming to get me.

00:19:51.040 --> 00:19:51.990
That's an alien, that's coming to get me and I can't have that, I need to kill it.

00:19:51.990 --> 00:19:52.611
You know I'm not going to get attacked by an alien.

00:19:52.611 --> 00:19:57.064
So I grab well, I've got the knife in my hand, or I grab it, I can't remember and I go out my window.

00:19:57.064 --> 00:20:03.311
I'm on the ground floor and I'm going like belly crawling or like, you know, army crawling over to get this, you know.

00:20:03.531 --> 00:20:09.864
And our flatmate again is, you know, he's outside his window smoking a spliff or whatever.

00:20:09.864 --> 00:20:11.055
I think that's what it was.

00:20:11.055 --> 00:20:14.250
Drags me into the what are you doing, you know?

00:20:14.250 --> 00:20:19.877
And the scary thing about that was what really frightened me was that he used to be a delivery driver.

00:20:19.877 --> 00:20:26.458
So there was a big van, his delivery van, blocking my view of the rest of the cul-de-sac.

00:20:26.458 --> 00:20:27.220
There were kids playing.

00:20:27.220 --> 00:20:27.981
It was after school.

00:20:27.981 --> 00:20:32.077
If I'd seen those kids in that psychosis, who knows what I would have done.

00:20:32.077 --> 00:20:37.769
Um, I mean, that is you know it's frightening.

00:20:38.029 --> 00:20:39.755
Frightening to think, isn't it terrifying?

00:20:39.775 --> 00:20:48.541
yeah, you know, I mean that psychosis is the worst thing because it feels so real you know, to people who don't know about drug and use psychosis.

00:20:48.561 --> 00:20:50.635
Um, what brings it on?

00:20:50.635 --> 00:20:51.479
Because I is.

00:20:51.479 --> 00:20:58.656
Some people may think that, for instance, well, obviously, with hallucinogenic substances such as, you know, listeria, people experience, you know, these hallucinations.

00:20:58.656 --> 00:21:03.595
But, um, is it something that can happen just after taking substances once?

00:21:03.595 --> 00:21:07.090
Does it happen after you know constant or years of abuse of it?

00:21:07.090 --> 00:21:08.111
How, what?

00:21:08.111 --> 00:21:08.951
What brings on when?

00:21:08.971 --> 00:21:09.532
does it come from?

00:21:09.532 --> 00:21:15.097
I mean, I don't know exactly where it comes from, but I think it's just you know a continual use of it.

00:21:15.097 --> 00:21:20.163
You know, over a sustained period of time, how it manifests.

00:21:20.163 --> 00:21:32.231
Looking back on it, everything gets a little bit louder, lights get brighter, so you're wired Every noise is like that.

00:21:32.352 --> 00:21:33.012
So you start getting paranoid.

00:21:33.012 --> 00:21:37.942
It just you know, I think your mind just switches, you think everybody's out to get you.

00:21:37.942 --> 00:21:44.829
You know, one of the things that I think is quite common if you use that amount of cocaine or crack is coke bugs.

00:21:44.829 --> 00:21:51.972
They're like white bugs that appear and they start coming at you and I think that's the first sign of the psychosis.

00:21:51.972 --> 00:22:03.311
And then you know for example I remember this was not that time, but another time I lived in a place where the plumbing was quite loud and the plumbing became like a devil voice to me, the way it would.

00:22:03.673 --> 00:22:07.239
You know, the noise of it became like a devil voice and started talking to me.

00:22:07.239 --> 00:22:31.022
You know, um, and everything you hear, like if you hear kids outside playing or people talking, it's people talking about you and they're coming to get you and despite the fact, hours will go on without them coming to get you, they're still talking about you until the drugs may wear off and then the voices dissipate.

00:22:31.022 --> 00:22:35.337
And you know, unless you continue to take it, and then it just gets worse and worse and worse.

00:22:35.951 --> 00:22:43.958
So what you're describing there almost sounds as though, when you stop taking things, that it's getting better, you stop hearing the voices of people talking about you.

00:22:43.958 --> 00:22:46.454
So what is the mindset of?

00:22:46.454 --> 00:22:47.096
Fuck it.

00:22:47.096 --> 00:22:51.825
I'm going to use some more then, because what you're describing there makes it sound like it's getting better as the drugs are wearing off.

00:22:51.924 --> 00:22:53.192
Physical allergy To me.

00:22:53.192 --> 00:22:54.015
It's a physical allergy.

00:22:54.015 --> 00:22:55.596
Once I start, I cannot stop.

00:22:55.596 --> 00:23:14.230
You know, the horrific thing about it to me is that person I am when I'm under the influence, which I guess the best simile that I can describe it as is a zombie, a real zombie.

00:23:14.230 --> 00:23:23.053
Um, is preferable to me being sober and who I, who I believe I am, and how the self-loathing and self-hatred that I have for myself I've had for myself.

00:23:23.053 --> 00:23:40.990
It's a work in progress that because I'm not, when I'm that or when I start taking drugs, I'm not thinking about my life, I'm not thinking about how I hate myself and I'm worthless and all of this, whatever, um, I'm not thinking about that.

00:23:41.192 --> 00:23:49.297
So that's preferable tell me about the relationships between uh, cocaine use and sexual behavior okay.

00:23:49.336 --> 00:23:54.874
So cocaine, obviously, is a lot of, you know, research done into that.

00:23:54.874 --> 00:23:58.675
Cocaine increases your sex drive, but not only your sex drive.

00:23:58.675 --> 00:24:07.516
What you're willing to do, what you want to do with a sexual partner, you know, I mean it is shameful, but I'll talk about it because I think a lot of people relate.

00:24:07.516 --> 00:24:09.092
You know the stuff I would.

00:24:09.092 --> 00:24:19.916
You, you know I never cheated on a girl, um, but when I was without a partner, um, and I never forced a girl to do anything they didn't want to do, it was I.

00:24:19.916 --> 00:24:26.334
What would if I was single and using with sex workers or strippers or things like that.

00:24:27.356 --> 00:24:30.486
Your mind is sick, depraved stuff.

00:24:30.486 --> 00:24:31.428
I won't go into it.

00:24:31.428 --> 00:24:33.313
But yeah, and it's, it's endless.

00:24:33.313 --> 00:24:36.422
And porn, um, you know.

00:24:36.422 --> 00:24:39.951
But that you know, addiction to porn and sex is a thing in itself.

00:24:39.951 --> 00:24:47.381
Sober, I don't watch porn, um, and I don't have those sick thoughts in my head.

00:24:47.381 --> 00:24:50.425
I put it down to the cocaine and the crack.

00:24:50.425 --> 00:24:53.474
But yeah, it's.

00:24:53.474 --> 00:24:55.895
And then when you wake up and it's done and they're gone.

00:24:56.369 --> 00:24:57.736
It's the shame and the guilt.

00:24:57.736 --> 00:24:58.518
This is who I am.

00:24:58.518 --> 00:25:00.556
I should be locked in a basement with a.

00:25:00.556 --> 00:25:02.694
You know, I can't be around people.

00:25:02.694 --> 00:25:07.400
This is, you know, it's horrific and, as I said, the shame you know shame is.

00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:13.893
You know how I feel about myself and the guilt over what I've done, and you know it's.

00:25:13.893 --> 00:25:24.586
It's heartbreaking and it's soul destroying and it increases the self-loathing and the self-hatred that my experience as an addict that I have for myself anyway.

00:25:24.586 --> 00:25:26.155
So it's like a vicious cycle.

00:25:26.155 --> 00:25:30.494
I am a completely different person, so it's like a vicious cycle.

00:25:30.494 --> 00:25:37.304
I am a completely different person, hi, and the sad thing is, as I mentioned before, is this person is preferable to living with my feelings.

00:25:37.304 --> 00:25:42.473
That I have sober, because to me I use them feelings, you know feelings.

00:25:42.473 --> 00:25:44.480
To me it's I can't deal with them.

00:25:44.480 --> 00:26:05.315
You know they're so amplified, every feeling that I can't live on, you know, on life's terms, and using drugs and sex and whatever it is, changes the way I feel and you know I can't.

00:26:05.315 --> 00:26:07.397
I have to find another way.

00:26:07.397 --> 00:26:16.699
You know my way, after however many years, 40 years, whatever has been an utter fucking disaster.

00:26:16.699 --> 00:26:31.198
I've hurt all the people that have ever loved me, you know, and the closest they are to me, the more hurt I cause them and I've hurt myself obviously.

00:26:31.198 --> 00:26:37.380
So my way's been an utter fucking disaster.

00:26:37.380 --> 00:26:40.836
I need to just try another fucking way.

00:26:40.836 --> 00:26:41.680
Try something else.

00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:47.155
And I have to learn how to manage feelings because, as I said, drugs are the solution, not the problem.

00:26:47.155 --> 00:26:48.117
It's the tip of the iceberg.

00:26:48.117 --> 00:26:49.300
It's what's going on underneath.

00:26:49.300 --> 00:26:49.883
It's me.

00:26:50.769 --> 00:26:52.698
Alcoholism got nothing to do with alcohol.

00:26:52.698 --> 00:26:59.881
Addiction's got nothing to do with drugs, it's self-medicating, I believe my experience.

00:26:59.881 --> 00:27:04.410
So, come lockdown, you know I was managing the cocaine habit.

00:27:04.410 --> 00:27:14.440
You know using a lot, lying to my girlfriend and to my work colleagues, and during lockdown it all went to shit.

00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:16.998
The house of cards that my life had been came down.

00:27:16.998 --> 00:27:22.278
My girlfriend basically figured out I admitted that I'd using after a week long relapse and she left.

00:27:22.278 --> 00:27:30.135
She came back and then, but then a few days later, I mean, I said I'll get clean and I spent a couple of days sober.

00:27:30.135 --> 00:27:31.118
I started using again.

00:27:31.118 --> 00:27:38.799
She read a text of mine to a former drug dealer and the chain was going back months, so she knew I'd been there.

00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:39.300
She left.

00:27:39.300 --> 00:27:42.219
So I had this big flat used and she left.

00:27:42.410 --> 00:27:53.243
She was also a client of mine, she was an actress and you know I started behaving in very, very strange fashion, sending her very odd emails like what are you doing, leaving me?

00:27:53.243 --> 00:27:55.959
You know how can you leave me All of this kind of nonsense.

00:27:55.959 --> 00:27:59.919
I mean, really, you know I'm smoking crack every day and you know you're going to leave me.

00:27:59.919 --> 00:28:00.701
I'm a catch.

00:28:00.701 --> 00:28:02.670
It was ridiculous, you know.

00:28:02.670 --> 00:28:07.619
I mean, she was a very pretty successful you know girl and she didn't want to end up on the street smoking crack.

00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:24.491
She, you know, had the courage and you know the self-worth to leave and I, you know, basically just got so bad that I was making some terrible decisions at work and, you know, despite months of support from them, eventually they had to pull the plug.

00:28:24.771 --> 00:28:31.641
You know, despite the money that I was earning for them, you know my reputation was just going down downhill with the other agents I was earning for them.

00:28:31.641 --> 00:28:35.829
You know my reputation was just going down downhill With the other agents I was working with out in America and stuff like that, and so they fired me.

00:28:35.829 --> 00:28:45.259
However, what I did, you know, to my biggest clients, you know I'd found and I bought to, that company would have probably stayed with me, but I ran.

00:28:45.259 --> 00:28:50.484
I was in such distress and self-loathing I can't do this, you know, poor me, poor me.

00:28:50.484 --> 00:28:51.987
I quit on them.

00:28:51.987 --> 00:28:57.201
I said I can't do this anymore, which is probably despite.

00:28:57.201 --> 00:28:59.796
You know that at the time I thought it was.

00:28:59.796 --> 00:29:01.875
You know, it seemed like the right decision.

00:29:01.875 --> 00:29:04.195
Months later, you know, I've got no money.

00:29:04.195 --> 00:29:05.319
It was a terrible decision.

00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:07.336
Now it was absolutely the best decision.

00:29:13.049 --> 00:29:15.295
You know I've decision now is absolutely the best decision you know I've.

00:29:15.295 --> 00:29:15.935
So talk about the um, um.

00:29:16.016 --> 00:29:17.439
You talked to my producer about a suicide attempt.

00:29:17.459 --> 00:29:20.311
That happened okay, let's talk a little bit about the events that that led up.

00:29:20.311 --> 00:29:21.654
Led up to that and why.

00:29:21.976 --> 00:29:32.329
Why you attempted to commit suicide in the first place um, well, so basically through that to end of you know, I got fired sort of mid 2020.

00:29:32.329 --> 00:29:35.097
I was using a lot.

00:29:35.097 --> 00:29:39.549
You know all that money I spent cocaine, turned to crack, um, ended up homeless.

00:29:39.549 --> 00:29:42.921
Someone got me into rehab my old sponsor, you know.

00:29:42.921 --> 00:29:44.145
I mean, this was a god moment.

00:29:44.426 --> 00:29:48.817
I, you know, I lived opposite a church and you know this doesn't go on too long, but it is.

00:29:48.817 --> 00:29:52.384
You know, it's how I believe that I've got something somebody looking after me.

00:29:52.384 --> 00:29:56.715
I lived right opposite this church it's funny enough they do CA meetings in.

00:29:56.715 --> 00:30:00.372
Not that I ever went to them, but I basically was kicked out of the flat, like you know.

00:30:00.372 --> 00:30:13.938
I forgot that my tenancy was up and, you know, the landlord came around with end of tenancy cleaners and the place was a crack den and she was like out, um, I had nowhere to go, no money, and so I've ended up in the church.

00:30:13.938 --> 00:30:18.522
It was the only place I could go and I prayed like I know this sounds a bit glib, but I did.

00:30:18.522 --> 00:30:19.729
I was like what the fuck am I going to do?

00:30:19.729 --> 00:30:20.794
God fucking help me.

00:30:20.794 --> 00:30:31.304
And five minutes later, someone called me my old sponsor called me, who hadn't spoken to in months, and managed to get me told him the truth and he got me into this rehab up north, which is where I found recovery.

00:30:31.365 --> 00:30:46.109
What I believe sobriety is about, which is trying to be of service to other people, um, but when, I left I hadn't, you know, I was on benefits and I was put in supported living and I know this sounds incredibly elitist and you know, but I'd never been on benefits before.

00:30:46.109 --> 00:31:17.152
And you know, and there I am in a part of London, out of Scots, in London, you know, with people I didn't know, no one was talking to me, I couldn't see my daughter, anyone, and so I picked up again after you know, moments of, you know, a couple of months of sobriety, two and a half, I can't quite remember how long I was up there, but I picked up and I couldn't stop again and I started lying to drug dealers, to you know, go, look, I'm going to get more commission from Stranger Things or whatever, even though I wasn't, you know.

00:31:17.152 --> 00:31:22.321
So I was ticking a lot and because it had always been true before, there was no reason to believe that it wasn't.

00:31:22.321 --> 00:31:27.059
Well, they had no reason to believe it wasn't true and I ended up knowing a lot of money and people that I shouldn't owe money to.

00:31:27.059 --> 00:31:36.971
I'm doing a lot of money and people that I shouldn't owe money to, um, but I and I was so miserable anyway because I like well, I've just been to rehab again for like the fourth time and still I'm.

00:31:36.971 --> 00:31:38.394
You know how low can it get.

00:31:38.394 --> 00:31:47.318
So I just thought I'm going to take 10 grams off someone this guy promised to him and then I'm going to kill myself.

00:31:48.260 --> 00:31:56.781
So I locked myself in the room, snorted all the, cooked some of the cocaine up, snorted some, smoked some I can't remember what.

00:31:56.781 --> 00:32:11.000
I was sectioned 28 by the police, you know, for 24 hours, and then a mental health team came to see me and they realized that, um, you know, I was under severe depression.

00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:13.311
I mean not clinically, but due to the drugs.

00:32:13.311 --> 00:32:17.411
I mean, I don't think I'm a clinical depressive or anything like that, but you know.

00:32:17.411 --> 00:32:22.441
So they sectioned one me for I think it was 30 days or 60 days.

00:32:22.441 --> 00:32:30.876
So I went into, you know, and I actually got sober there and I was sober for quite a while, physically sober, emotionally probably not.

00:32:30.876 --> 00:32:33.359
But so that's you know.

00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:39.205
To be honest, look, I don't it was, I don't think it was a really serious attempt.

00:32:39.306 --> 00:32:43.076
I mean, you know, if you want, was it the intention to take life or was you just so angry?

00:32:43.097 --> 00:32:53.717
No, I wanted, if I'm honest I'm going to be brutally honest about this I you know, the thought was I want to die, and I really did want to die, but when I started slashing my wrist it really hurt.

00:32:53.717 --> 00:32:55.866
You know, I can't do this.

00:32:56.049 --> 00:32:57.249
I want to die, but I don't want to die.

00:32:59.255 --> 00:33:05.338
You know, I mean many suicidal thoughts and ideations and I mean I still have that today, the call of the void.

00:33:05.338 --> 00:33:09.240
But it was, yeah, slashing last morris, but it really hurt.

00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:10.084
It wasn't quite you know.

00:33:10.084 --> 00:33:12.071
Yeah, I don't think it was a.

00:33:12.071 --> 00:33:17.007
You know, if I wanted genuinely to kill myself, there are ways of doing it that.

00:33:17.007 --> 00:33:20.435
Yeah, I think it's more of a cry for help.

00:33:20.796 --> 00:33:33.518
Yeah, if I'm honest, um, it's interesting to say that, as sometimes cry helps or the term cry for help is often used by other people towards someone who has made a suicide attempt, but not the actual person themselves.

00:33:33.518 --> 00:33:49.622
So it's quite interesting to reflect on that and say it was a cry for help and we we did some suicide training before and it was was talking to a survivor of a suicide attempt and and he shared the story that you know what he never wanted to die because at the end of the day, we don't know what death is.

00:33:49.622 --> 00:33:51.676
We have our beliefs on what death could be.

00:33:51.676 --> 00:34:01.715
But he said the instant regret he felt and the gratitude he felt that it didn't work as well was very interesting, because he realised he didn't want to die.

00:34:01.715 --> 00:34:04.078
He just wanted to stop feeling the way he was feeling.

00:34:04.270 --> 00:34:08.516
And that's something that's really stuck with me around suicide and attempted suicide.

00:34:08.590 --> 00:34:09.293
I can relate to that.

00:34:09.293 --> 00:34:11.615
I mean, if I'm brutally honest, I'm not scared of dying.

00:34:11.615 --> 00:34:14.255
What's the worst that can happen?

00:34:14.255 --> 00:34:18.974
Nothing, you know, I'm petrified of living.

00:34:19.329 --> 00:34:21.538
Yeah, that's an interesting way of looking at it.

00:34:21.538 --> 00:34:27.394
You know, life scares the fuck out of me you know, and I'm full of fear.

00:34:28.177 --> 00:34:34.217
you know I never used to think I was, but my life is run by fear, self-centered fear and resentment.

00:34:34.217 --> 00:34:44.757
But I think in the moment I didn't want to feel like this anymore and the only thing that I knew I couldn't, I saw no way out.

00:34:44.757 --> 00:34:46.755
I can't stop using drugs.

00:34:46.755 --> 00:34:48.873
I've been to three different rehabs in the last fucking six months.

00:34:48.873 --> 00:34:50.353
You know I've been to three different rehabs in the last fucking six months.

00:34:50.353 --> 00:34:55.257
You know I've lost everything or traded it my beautiful, beautiful daughter.

00:34:55.257 --> 00:35:09.811
I, yeah, I'm quite not quite ready to talk about that yet but you know my girlfriend's job, everything, anything that I built up, I'd lost, I'd traded, I had nothing.

00:35:10.152 --> 00:35:11.797
You know, poor me, poor me, self-pity.

00:35:11.797 --> 00:35:12.960
I mean, victims don't recover.

00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:14.833
And you know I was full of self-pity.

00:35:14.833 --> 00:35:24.541
I didn't want to feel like this anymore and the only solution that I had was you know, you know, eternal blackness or death or whatever.

00:35:24.541 --> 00:35:24.800
You know.

00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:25.543
So I think I did.

00:35:25.543 --> 00:35:27.253
But then when it oh, that really hurts.

00:35:27.273 --> 00:35:29.922
I don't like that yeah, I know, I get it.

00:35:29.922 --> 00:35:31.465
I get it, I'm a coward.

00:35:31.465 --> 00:35:36.387
I'm a coward as well, yeah talk to him about, like, let's have a look at the opposite end of this now.

00:35:36.387 --> 00:35:38.568
Let's talk about the recovery steps then.

00:35:38.568 --> 00:35:42.277
Okay, you've talked about small periods of abstinence.

00:35:42.277 --> 00:35:46.130
When was when was the moment you thought right?

00:35:54.876 --> 00:35:57.260
You know, I think it was.

00:35:57.260 --> 00:36:00.708
I mean that absolutely.

00:36:00.708 --> 00:36:05.076
I don't know whether you call it a God shot and that sounds, but whatever.

00:36:05.076 --> 00:36:11.425
But there was a moment when I decided to go to rehab again in November last year.

00:36:11.425 --> 00:36:12.597
I need to do this.

00:36:12.597 --> 00:36:13.300
I've had enough.

00:36:13.300 --> 00:36:14.684
You know I'm sick.

00:36:14.684 --> 00:36:18.965
You know I don't believe that you have to reach a rock bottom.

00:36:18.965 --> 00:36:28.695
You can get off the elevator anytime you want, yeah, but for me, my experience is I had to reach that, not just a physical lost, everything, physical things, but emotionally just.

00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:30.862
I can't keep doing this.

00:36:30.862 --> 00:36:35.045
You know there are a hundred reasons to get clean.

00:36:35.045 --> 00:36:40.961
The first one it was the first time it was the first one was for myself.

00:36:40.961 --> 00:36:42.096
I need to do this for myself.

00:36:42.096 --> 00:36:48.606
The the other 99 are for my kid, um, because she can't.

00:36:48.606 --> 00:36:50.856
I just want to be a good dad, you know.

00:36:50.856 --> 00:36:56.519
I mean we'll talk about that later, but that's the only thing I want in my life is to be a good father to her um, and she deserves it.

00:36:56.519 --> 00:37:05.990
But yeah, I think it was just I don't know, it was a feeling I've done, I've had enough and I'll do whatever it takes if my sponsor, I do 12 steps.

00:37:05.990 --> 00:37:10.288
That's how I found sobriety as well as cgl, like the support I had.

00:37:10.327 --> 00:37:16.922
I don't want to be too sycophantic in here obviously but the support I had from my manager and her manager.

00:37:16.922 --> 00:37:20.887
I just you know, there were no fucking words.

00:37:20.887 --> 00:37:24.378
Um, I mean, I get it, I work for substance use service.

00:37:24.721 --> 00:37:35.365
Slightly hypocritical to fire someone for relapsing, but you know they were there for me and they gave me everything there's a there's a difference between being there for someone because you have to be in them, being there for someone because you want to be.

00:37:35.365 --> 00:37:39.007
Well, and I'm guessing you feel like they actually wanted to be there rather oh, absolutely.

00:37:39.067 --> 00:37:41.394
I mean yeah, mean, yeah, they needed well, no, they didn't need to be, did they?

00:37:41.394 --> 00:37:53.626
They could just like sorry, you've relapsed, you know, but no, they were there, the kindness you know that I've got from, and my manager is not a recovering addict, so she doesn't get it.

00:37:53.626 --> 00:37:59.585
But her patience, her kindness, her understanding is second to fucking none, Do you know what.

00:37:59.605 --> 00:38:10.380
The one thing that I've said this before, but as someone myself who's not in recovery and has had it said to him before oh, you can't help because you don't understand.

00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:21.809
My retort has always been I've never been hit by a bus either, but I know that it would hurt and I think it's one of them things where, as long as you can understand and empathize with the pain that someone's feeling, then you can help.

00:38:21.809 --> 00:38:24.862
Maybe it's obvious for someone like myself.

00:38:24.862 --> 00:38:27.925
I'm not of the belief that only an addict can help another addict.

00:38:28.275 --> 00:38:37.775
I think there needs to be a very holistic approach to helping people from peer support to this sort of external support, just people willing to listen, I think is a massive help.

00:38:37.855 --> 00:38:38.275
You know what?

00:38:38.275 --> 00:38:54.166
You're right, you don't have to be an addict, no, but you definitely have to have some empathy, absolutely and simply and have that you know you want to help, understanding, you know to be altruistic, um, and to have that in your nature that you want to help other people.

00:38:54.166 --> 00:38:55.731
But I do.

00:38:55.731 --> 00:39:02.007
There is a big, because I do 12 steps and that is one addict helping another, you know it can be helpful.

00:39:04.135 --> 00:39:08.762
But yeah, I'd got to a point where, you know, that day I didn't want to use.

00:39:08.762 --> 00:39:11.244
You know the next day I might use, but it's been.

00:39:11.244 --> 00:39:25.177
I haven't had an obsession to use since November, the 18th, 18, um I, I'm sick and tired.

00:39:25.177 --> 00:39:25.739
I've been sick and tired.

00:39:25.739 --> 00:39:27.606
I could reel off a numerous amount of aa slogans and cliches.

00:39:27.606 --> 00:39:39.239
I mean, they're there because they're real, but it's, you know, it was a rock bottom for me there are other rock bottoms, further ones, I'm sure, out there um, but it was an internal decision.

00:39:39.318 --> 00:39:47.586
I've just I don't, I can't really put it into words I just I've heard it described as a bit of a almost like a light bulb moment.

00:39:47.586 --> 00:39:50.922
You know, it's just something, that something that clicks in your head one day.

00:39:50.922 --> 00:39:55.268
Yeah, and sometimes there isn't a rock bottom moment, as you said, there is no rhyme or reason.

00:39:55.268 --> 00:39:57.699
It's just the feeling that something has clicked in in your head.

00:39:57.699 --> 00:40:03.864
And I've, you know, speaking with people and meeting with people and working with people that have been in recovery for 10 plus years.

00:40:03.864 --> 00:40:04.708
And when you say so, what?

00:40:04.708 --> 00:40:05.010
What was?

00:40:05.010 --> 00:40:05.974
The change was like, I don't know.

00:40:05.974 --> 00:40:15.202
I just woke up one morning and, as you said, I was sick and tired of being sick and tired, and something just clicked in my brain where I just felt like a different person and sometimes that can be.

00:40:15.222 --> 00:40:17.003
That can be the case, can't it?

00:40:17.003 --> 00:40:18.045
You know there was a lot.

00:40:18.045 --> 00:40:27.583
Also, you know, when that particular girlfriend left in 2020, I haven't ever spoken to her since, but that was the only girl I've ever truly been in love with.

00:40:27.583 --> 00:40:30.114
And the heartbreak I've never been heartbroken before.

00:40:30.114 --> 00:40:40.300
So that, and being in addiction and losing this and trading this and this, I was so low right that I can't deal with feelings, but that dissipated, too.

00:40:40.300 --> 00:40:42.998
The heartbreak it ends, you know, I got over her.

00:40:42.998 --> 00:40:50.155
You know, and I got over the fact that I didn't have this job, whatever and flat, you know, in a nice area of London, et cetera.

00:40:50.155 --> 00:40:51.481
And hope.

00:40:52.615 --> 00:40:58.525
I think when I decided to go to that rehab Clouds and my friend helped me get in, I got a bursary bed.

00:40:58.525 --> 00:41:04.961
There was hope, and I hadn't had hope in a long motherfucking sorry, a long, fucking time, sorry.

00:41:04.961 --> 00:41:10.119
I hadn't had hope in a long time that I could life might be okay.

00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:18.541
Um, beginning to speak to my daughter, you know, and what I'll talk about was now in a bit of recovery.

00:41:18.541 --> 00:41:37.327
You know the people that I met and the kindness and you know, from CGL and in their 12 steps, there was a sense of hope that my life isn't over and there might be another way, and you know um, how did that come about then, in terms of volunteering at like, change go live services, what, what?

00:41:37.454 --> 00:41:37.996
what brought that up?

00:41:38.016 --> 00:41:45.389
so when I came out of that mental health ward, I suppose, um, you know, I just all I could do was, you know, I had no money.

00:41:45.389 --> 00:42:02.065
You know, they're still kind of locked down, ish, you know, and I was in place in very, very far out of london where they're not a lot of meetings, and I just got on meetings and I just, you know, slowly I started feeling a little bit better about myself and, you know, head lifted, blah, blah, blah, and I I can't quite, you know, I just had an idea.

00:42:02.065 --> 00:42:03.869
You know, I need to do something.

00:42:03.869 --> 00:42:12.536
I mean, I did a little writing, um, which I love, but I wanted to try and, do you know, get out the house, try and do something.

00:42:12.536 --> 00:42:13.478
Well, what can I do?

00:42:13.478 --> 00:42:18.197
Like, you know, I'm trained, you know I, well, I went to university but studied film.

00:42:18.197 --> 00:42:19.762
You know, I burnt that fucking shit to the ground.

00:42:19.762 --> 00:42:21.025
I was, you know, when I went to university but studied film.

00:42:21.025 --> 00:42:22.751
You know, I burnt that fucking shit to the ground.

00:42:22.875 --> 00:42:28.635
I was never you know well, I'm a recovering drug addict, maybe I could help professionally.

00:42:28.635 --> 00:42:40.710
So I jumped I literally put volunteering in drug services, I think into Google and CGL came up and you know I got an interview and you know, know, and I started doing that a little bit.

00:42:40.710 --> 00:43:04.643
I mean, you know, and I liked it, and then the person who ran the volunteering team at the cgo hub that worked for rang me up a few weeks later, or a few months later, because then I stopped doing it for a little bit because I started working for a friend of mine who's a casting director and she just gave me a job so I could earn some money.

00:43:04.643 --> 00:43:13.563
And then I got a call saying look, you know, we're doing this new pilot scheme, this peer mentoring thing, and we'd love you to interview.

00:43:13.563 --> 00:43:21.061
And you know I, as much as I was grateful to you know, get some work in.

00:43:21.135 --> 00:43:22.239
It's not what I wanted to do.

00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:23.882
I don't want to work in film anymore.

00:43:23.882 --> 00:43:25.822
It didn't really do me any favours.

00:43:25.822 --> 00:43:31.641
Let's try this, maybe I could be good at it, maybe I could help someone.

00:43:31.641 --> 00:43:35.125
And I know that sounds like oh, am I fucking sane?

00:43:35.125 --> 00:43:36.963
No, I get it?

00:43:37.416 --> 00:43:37.980
I think there is.

00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:56.239
You know, I'm the volunteer lead for for the service in hull and I hear a lot of people saying that they want to give back and and I completely understand that, because if you've experienced some really low depths of despair and you found somewhere that's helped you, when you think you know maybe I can help other people, I think it's a completely natural feeling to have.

00:43:56.239 --> 00:44:02.996
But one of the things that I'm really interested in was was a quote from yourself where you said I used to think working in recovery services was recovering.

00:44:02.996 --> 00:44:14.318
And that's something that really jumped out at me, because the amount of requests I get for volunteering here in holland and bear in mind it's a it's a very small team, you know like, yeah, there's only volunteering.

00:44:14.378 --> 00:44:15.378
It's much like paid jobs.

00:44:15.378 --> 00:44:18.503
You don't just bring in, you don't pay someone to do a job that doesn't need to be done.

00:44:18.503 --> 00:44:19.465
It's the same volunteers.

00:44:19.465 --> 00:44:22.295
I don't take on volunteers if there isn't jobs that need to be done.

00:44:22.295 --> 00:44:32.376
You know there are set rules for it, but I think one of the one of the needs for it is it comes from the wrong place, where people think that, um, by volunteering in recovery or by working in recovery.

00:44:32.376 --> 00:44:35.601
That is recovery and that isn't the case, is it?

00:44:35.961 --> 00:44:36.702
no, it's not.

00:44:36.702 --> 00:44:38.525
I mean, I had to learn that really exactly.

00:44:38.585 --> 00:44:43.954
It's a really interesting yeah, well, tell me, tell me about that then as well well, you know I've been sober for a while.

00:44:44.536 --> 00:44:50.766
You know, um, physically sober I'd well, I'd go to meetings, I worked the steps etc.

00:44:50.766 --> 00:45:00.969
And you know, and I got this job and you're the volunteering and also know the actual job, you know, and I did it part time, but you know I'm helping other people.

00:45:00.969 --> 00:45:01.750
That's step 12.

00:45:01.750 --> 00:45:19.728
But you know, I saw I took my foot off the gas, I think, for want of a better phrase I stopped going to meetings, I stopped connecting with my sponsor and other fellows in recovery and and I was okay with that because, hold on, I'm surrounded by people in recovery and I'm working in recovery.

00:45:19.728 --> 00:45:22.465
And I was okay with that because, hold on, I'm surrounded by people in recovery and I'm working in recovery.

00:45:22.465 --> 00:45:24.923
So you know this is recovery.

00:45:24.923 --> 00:45:26.940
You know I had to learn that.

00:45:26.940 --> 00:45:31.141
You know you need to work this program 12 steps daily.

00:45:31.141 --> 00:45:40.864
You know, and you know, if you're not, you know, faith without works is dead, as it says in the book, right?

00:45:40.864 --> 00:45:43.541
So if I'm not doing it right, I'm stagnant.

00:45:43.541 --> 00:45:45.025
I'm not just stagnating, I'm going back.

00:45:45.025 --> 00:45:47.242
And so I stopped doing all of that shit.

00:45:47.454 --> 00:45:51.045
And suddenly, you know I got this influx of money.

00:45:51.045 --> 00:45:52.400
Trigger for me is money.

00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:54.199
I had no defense.

00:45:54.199 --> 00:46:01.815
You know so that feeling that obsession to use came on me and previously.

00:46:01.815 --> 00:46:03.822
You know so that feeling that obsession to use came on me and previously.

00:46:03.822 --> 00:46:09.115
And what I do now is not that I've had one, but that quote right I've got 12 shiny tools to use when I start feeling like I want to use.

00:46:09.115 --> 00:46:16.664
I didn't have it then, so I picked up, um, you know and, but maybe I needed it.

00:46:16.664 --> 00:46:21.931
You know, maybe I needed that last thing to make me realize I am fucking done.

00:46:21.931 --> 00:46:45.960
I can never use drugs again, because there is a part of me still which is just insane, that thinks I could have a little line of cocaine and have a drink and shut up and go, despite my experience that, you know, three hours later I'm going to be stealing my mate's cocaine and helping him look for it and then ending up with a crack pipe in my bed wanting to die again um.

00:46:47.342 --> 00:46:48.987
Do you think those feelings will ever go away?

00:46:48.987 --> 00:46:49.067
Who?

00:46:50.530 --> 00:46:51.112
the fuck knows.

00:46:51.112 --> 00:46:53.538
I mean, I haven't had them in a long time.

00:46:53.538 --> 00:46:58.507
Yeah, but that's because, I think, maybe because I'm doing the work.

00:46:58.507 --> 00:47:07.940
You know, as I said, if my sponsor tells me to stand upside down in a bucket of pig shit, I'll fucking do it If that's going to get me sober or keep me sober, because one thing is getting sober it's, another thing is staying sober.

00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:08.641
Yeah, that's it.00:47:08.641 --> 00:47:21.342


We talk about experiences with rehab and one of my volunteers a former volunteer he would collect people from rehab and one of the quotes he used to say so much was something that always stood out to me.00:47:21.342 --> 00:47:27.146


That I'd hear is um uh well, you know, you've done the easy part, which is you know the rehab.00:47:27.146 --> 00:47:30.416


In comparison, the hard part is fucking staying clean.00:47:30.416 --> 00:47:35.565


There was no, there was no substances in in the rehab unit there was not exactly getting getting clean.00:47:35.606 --> 00:47:39.994


I mean, I've been to six rehabs hold on, is that correct?00:47:39.994 --> 00:47:46.114


One in 2015, three in 2005.00:47:46.114 --> 00:47:51.320


Five, five rehabs not one of them, apart from the last one.00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:54.500


But I don't think I'm clean because of the last rehab.00:47:54.500 --> 00:47:57.101


I mean, it's easy to stay clean in rehab.00:47:57.242 --> 00:48:02.496


You know, when you're busy all day and you can't use, you know, and you're busy all day and you can't use, you know, and you're in the middle of nowhere.00:48:02.496 --> 00:48:03.297


You know, and this is my.00:48:03.297 --> 00:48:10.226


You know I will say this and you know this is my struggle with residential rehabs they don't educate you enough.00:48:10.226 --> 00:48:12.869


As soon as you walk through the door, they should be educating on you.00:48:12.869 --> 00:48:19.432


And when you're going to leave, you know, yeah, it's a piece of business, they fucking.00:48:19.432 --> 00:48:28.561


When you've got everything to do, you've got group, you've got the outings, you've got meetings at night, the food is cooked for you, the bed's made, all of that and you know you're surrounded by people.00:48:28.561 --> 00:48:37.396


It's when you're alone in your bedroom and because my head's my worst enemy, that's when you need to know how to stay clean.00:48:37.396 --> 00:48:39.320


You know, get through feelings.00:48:39.481 --> 00:48:48.284


One of the guys that I worked with before going to rehab was on the train home Little trolley woman, come down anything from the trolley, do you?00:48:48.284 --> 00:48:59.369


They had alcohol on offer, literally not even got home yet, because he just wasn't prepared for the temptation of alcohol once he got on the outside.00:48:59.369 --> 00:49:01.817


Yeah, absolutely, it didn't happen like you said.00:49:01.817 --> 00:49:03.201


It wasn't something that was discussed.00:49:03.201 --> 00:49:05.005


Yeah, a little safe bubble in there.00:49:05.416 --> 00:49:18.121


yeah, stumbled at the first hurdle is what he said the first thing, the only thing they should do I believe in treatment is prepare you to leave yeah I mean, I remember the first rehab I went to was in south africa and that got cheaper there.00:49:18.141 --> 00:49:25.190


But I went in November 2015 and Height of summer, on the beach, beach walks, it was beautiful.00:49:25.190 --> 00:49:26.594


It's like a fucking holiday camp, mm-hmm.00:49:26.594 --> 00:49:28.458


And then I leave in February.00:49:28.458 --> 00:49:36.126


You know, three, four months, four months sober, and I come back to February, london in February, freezing cold gray concrete.00:49:36.126 --> 00:49:38.777


You know, I Didn't prepare me for that.00:49:38.777 --> 00:49:40.300


I'd just been on holiday for four months.00:49:40.300 --> 00:49:41.264


Can't deal with this feeling.00:49:41.264 --> 00:49:41.844


This is shit.00:49:41.844 --> 00:49:42.887


I wish I was back in the sun.00:49:42.887 --> 00:49:46.101


Fuck it, I'll use yeah, you know banging it out for however long.00:49:49.635 --> 00:49:53.827


So you've given us almost like a comprehensive overview of addiction.00:49:53.827 --> 00:50:01.626


You know how did it sort of start, I guess, because I imagine addiction doesn't happen overnight.00:50:01.626 --> 00:50:05.782


You don't just take substances once and are addicted to it at least not to my knowledge anyway.00:50:05.782 --> 00:50:18.179


Talk me through a little bit about the journey of starting taking substances, why you started taking them and how it ended up to being this crisis that it's been told to be.00:50:18.179 --> 00:50:19.884


I mean it, it's, you know, being told to be.00:50:20.244 --> 00:50:21.599


I mean it was a slow boat to hell.00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:28.938


But I believe my addiction started manifesting probably when I was about seven, um, and my first addiction was fantasy.00:50:28.938 --> 00:50:31.626


Um, you know lies.00:50:31.626 --> 00:50:42.789


I wasn't happy with who I am so I would lie to you know, to people, please, to make people think I'm better than I am, because I'm not comfortable in myself and I would have monologues going on in my head.00:50:42.789 --> 00:50:43.452


I still have them.00:50:43.452 --> 00:50:50.797


To be honest with you, I mean, fantasy is still a big thing and you know about what my life could be and if I was somebody else, etc.00:50:50.797 --> 00:50:53.880


Um, and that, you know, lasted well, forever.00:50:54.402 --> 00:51:01.050


But I first picked up drugs, probably when I was 12 or 13, and it was hash, then it was fun.00:51:01.050 --> 00:51:10.641


It was, you know, the stereotypical view of, you know, teenage potheads laughing, giggling, eating, you know ridiculous foods and stuff.00:51:10.641 --> 00:51:13.643


And then, you know, I grew up in West London.00:51:13.643 --> 00:51:20.898


You know Notting Hill probably should be illegal for people to grow up there as a teenager, but then it became Clubland and it was ecstasy.00:51:20.898 --> 00:51:27.679


And you know notting hill probably should be illegal for people to grow up there as a teenager, um, but then it became clubland and it was ecstasy, and you know, and cocaine, but it was, you know, for the next few years.00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:29.063


You know it was party.00:51:29.063 --> 00:51:34.684


It was a party of a thousand, it was out clubs, taking drugs and girls and all of that business and lots of fun.00:51:35.467 --> 00:51:44.963


But then I think, gradually the drugs became more important than the house, music and the girls and the good times and I would leave early to use by myself.00:51:44.963 --> 00:51:47.242


And I just want to use by myself.00:51:47.242 --> 00:52:03.291


And I think I, by the time I was my mid to late 20s, I was becoming not solely, but I was isolating to use, not solely, but I was isolating to use.00:52:03.291 --> 00:52:17.699


And you know, I think before I was born, you know I remember using all night while my girlfriend, her mum well, my then-girlfriend was asleep in bed, she'd go off to work.00:52:17.699 --> 00:52:37.036


I had a freelance job as I used to make television commercials before I became an agent, so I didn't have to work, go into an office every day, and then there are a few times I actually remember thinking all right, it's in the morning, she's gone off to work and I pick up now, and so it started a cycle and then it's a progressive disease.00:52:37.036 --> 00:52:38.440


It gets worse and worse and worse.00:52:45.614 --> 00:52:47.057


You've talked a lot throughout this conversation about your daughter.00:52:47.057 --> 00:52:47.759


How old's your daughter now?00:52:47.759 --> 00:52:48.501


She's 14.00:52:48.501 --> 00:52:52.349


Talk to me a little bit about what that relationship is like with her now.00:52:52.349 --> 00:52:58.804


For you, it's obviously important that you want to do some making up.00:52:58.804 --> 00:53:00.393


The only thing that's important to you is to to be a good dad.00:53:00.393 --> 00:53:02.621


As a as a dad myself, I completely understand that.00:53:02.621 --> 00:53:06.719


I think that you know having children does really change that in your way.00:53:06.739 --> 00:53:16.342


Your priority just becomes somebody else um, our relationship isn't perfect in any way.00:53:16.342 --> 00:53:18.186


I don't see her a lot.00:53:18.186 --> 00:53:26.105


She's a teenager, she has her own life, um, but she quite rightly doesn't trust me just because I'm clean.00:53:26.626 --> 00:53:34.932


I've been clean before, she has no I mean I don't know what goes on in her head, but you know my failings as a father.00:53:34.932 --> 00:53:37.559


I can promise you are nothing to do with a fucking lack of love.00:53:37.559 --> 00:53:58.286


Um, it's because I'm a drug addict and if you'd given me two years ago you had a choice of an eight ball of crack or my daughter, I'd have chosen the former every single fucking time, every time, and that's a horrible thing to admit, but it's just the truth.00:53:58.286 --> 00:54:06.567


Now I'm sober, we speak, we text, but she's incredibly close with her mum.00:54:06.567 --> 00:54:07.108


She had to be.00:54:07.108 --> 00:54:10.603


Her mum has been an absolute rock for her.00:54:10.603 --> 00:54:25.485


She's had to be, because I'm not about this is I just have to have patience.00:54:25.485 --> 00:54:27.201


It's on her terms.00:54:27.201 --> 00:54:29.543


She's, you know, before it used to be her mum going.00:54:29.543 --> 00:54:35.019


You can't see daddy until he's 90 days sober, but now she's 14.00:54:35.019 --> 00:54:37.101


It's her choice and she laid down boundaries.00:54:37.101 --> 00:54:41.101


Daddy, you've got to be six months and I'm incredibly proud of her for that.00:54:41.101 --> 00:54:49.981


You know it bodes very well for any future relationships she has with men that she's not going to take any shit.00:54:49.981 --> 00:54:52.722


She's not going to be ignored or, you know, neglected.00:54:52.722 --> 00:54:53.143


She's.00:54:53.143 --> 00:54:59.744


You know she's laying down boundaries and for a 14 year old girl, that's incredibly mature and as much as it hurts, I want to see her all the fucking time.00:54:59.744 --> 00:55:01.929


You know I've missed out on so much.00:55:01.929 --> 00:55:15.056


You know, um, there's so much part of her life I don't know, you know, um, and I hope to god that I can mend this bridge and mend a relationship.00:55:15.056 --> 00:55:38.257


It's not fixed, um, and I understand that, like you know, just because I'm sober 233 days and fuck all to her you know, I've been sober before and relapsed there's a massive lack of trust, which is understandable, and you know it reminds me of what a counselor said to me, which I have to share because I love it.00:55:38.257 --> 00:55:39.360


It makes me laugh every time.00:55:40.742 --> 00:55:49.335


When I was in one of my many rehabs, there was a counsellor who was a Scottish guy and he, you know, in and out of prison all his life and, you know, a drug addict, heroin addict.00:55:49.335 --> 00:56:00.844


He got clean in prison and he came out, you know, got released, and he was a year sober and he goes around his mum's and he's like, mum, I'm a year sober and the mum just looks and goes.00:56:00.844 --> 00:56:02.288


So fucking what so's the cat?00:56:02.288 --> 00:56:11.010


But right, yeah, you know, I have to show her, and love is a verb.00:56:11.010 --> 00:56:12.777


This is another thing that will cover you short.00:56:12.777 --> 00:56:15.788


You know, as taught me, love is a fucking verb.00:56:15.788 --> 00:56:21.702


You know I can love my daughter to the moon and back and unless I show her that, it means fuck all.00:56:21.702 --> 00:56:25.885


So I'm determined to do that, but I need to do it on her terms.00:56:26.835 --> 00:56:28.119


You know she texted me.00:56:28.119 --> 00:56:35.041


You know I was texting her every day and she texted me going Daddy, you're overwhelming me at the moment, before it would be like what are you talking about?00:56:35.041 --> 00:56:35.496


I'm your dad.00:56:35.496 --> 00:56:35.936


I love you.00:56:35.936 --> 00:56:36.719


I want to speak to you.00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:37.760


Know, that's okay?00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:41.438


Yeah, you know I'll text you every few days.00:56:41.438 --> 00:56:45.108


Yeah, you know, um, but she's busy.00:56:45.108 --> 00:56:48.157


You know she's got busy social life absolutely teenagers, isn't it?00:56:48.177 --> 00:56:49.101


you know what I mean?00:56:49.121 --> 00:56:55.625


yeah, and her mom says that, like you, know, sometimes when you get the monosyllabic, yeah, whatever, it's her being a 14 year old girl.00:56:55.625 --> 00:56:59.548


That's a big part of me and that's probably ego as well.00:56:59.548 --> 00:57:00.273


That's, you know.00:57:00.273 --> 00:57:05.947


It's because of the way I've been a dad in the last 40 years that you know, but it's probably a bit of both.00:57:05.947 --> 00:57:30.547


But look, I, as I said earlier, apart from my sobriety, which has to come first, because if I don't have that I'm gonna fuck all um the most important thing to me is to be a good dad, to be someone that she trusts, that she can turn to and that supports her emotionally, and she knows that she's always got a dad that would do anything for her.00:57:30.755 --> 00:57:39.385


Yeah, I think sometimes it's not necessarily enough, but it's comforting to know that they will have that as well.00:57:39.385 --> 00:57:46.586


Yeah, yeah, I mean I relate a lot to what you're saying and and it's, it's difficult.00:57:46.586 --> 00:57:48.838


I think I've never known a challenge like it.00:57:48.838 --> 00:58:10.927


Being a parent, um, I think as a person, I can be quite selfish, in the sense of you know, my needs would often go first and you know, having a child it's like okay, now I've got to put someone in front of me, but still trying to maintain a balance of having time for me and still being me to the point where my identity doesn't just become I'm dad.00:58:10.927 --> 00:58:13.518


At the end of the day, I'm still Matthew Butler.00:58:13.518 --> 00:58:14.739


What are my interests?00:58:14.739 --> 00:58:16.603


What do I like to do?00:58:17.744 --> 00:58:20.389


You know, for me, I would love my identity to be I'm dad.00:58:20.389 --> 00:58:23.141


I'd love that because I've never had been.00:58:23.141 --> 00:58:25.342


You know I get it.00:58:25.342 --> 00:58:27.824


Yeah, that would be heaven.00:58:29.018 --> 00:58:39.514


You know my dad is I'm dad, you know it's funny that because it shows the the differences and in a way I guess for me I should be be thankful.00:58:39.514 --> 00:58:40.387


Be thankful then.00:58:40.387 --> 00:58:41.920


Be thankful like yes, when it's.00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:44.443


I had a bit of a to do with my wife the other day.00:58:44.443 --> 00:58:48.621


I was like why is it always me 6.30 in the morning, she wants me Bedtime.00:58:48.621 --> 00:58:49.878


She wants me Bath time.00:58:49.878 --> 00:58:51.181


She wants me, do you?00:58:51.202 --> 00:58:52.346


know what I mean Exactly.00:58:53.588 --> 00:58:55.777


And don't get me wrong, I don't complain about it as such.00:58:55.777 --> 00:58:56.119


I do it.00:58:56.119 --> 00:58:58.123


But I'm like, oh God I could, I've had a busy day.00:58:58.123 --> 00:59:01.077


I just I could do with like an hour to myself today and I'm not.00:59:01.077 --> 00:59:02.317


I'm not getting it, and it can.00:59:02.317 --> 00:59:03.922


Sometimes that can be a little bit overwhelming.00:59:03.922 --> 00:59:12.637


And here I am, sat in front of someone who would, who would give you know, just the world, to be the person that the doctor wants all the time.00:59:12.637 --> 00:59:14.762


It's perspective, isn't it?00:59:14.802 --> 00:59:18.728


And I guess it's interesting to have this conversation because it's made me feel a little bit thankful for what I do have.00:59:18.728 --> 00:59:19.969


I went.00:59:25.036 --> 01:00:00.255


I went to go watch the England game last night and I had to deal with a temper tantrum because I was leaving the house, you know, and it was like at first I was like I'm leaving the house going, oh, you know, and like, obviously I give her a hug and say like, and someone who would probably give an arm and a leg to have that I remember, you know, talking about that, I remember one of my fondest memories is during I think she was about four or five and I'd separated from my daughter's mum but I still lived in the same area and I was walking past her primary school just kind of as they were going in and I didn't know that I was going to her.01:00:00.275 --> 01:00:03.543


Mum drives her and she gets out the car and she sees me for like 30 yards away.01:00:03.543 --> 01:00:13.621


It's like daddy and she you know what they were for and she just runs and leaps into my arms and I remember my daughter's mom saying you'll never forget moments like that.01:00:13.621 --> 01:00:23.083


And there's one thing that me and my daughter do as well and we have there are moments, you know she does tell me things like you know she'll ring me up and you know she'll chat.01:00:23.083 --> 01:00:24.306


This has happened and stuff.01:00:24.306 --> 01:00:26.621


I mean I wish there was more, but in time.01:00:26.621 --> 01:00:34.766


But one of the things we do is we like we go to the pub and eat chips and have coca-cola and we always raise a chip to the chip, god you know.01:00:34.806 --> 01:00:37.117


I mean just like no one else does that just within her, yeah, and you know so.01:00:37.117 --> 01:00:38.702


There is just like no one else does that just within her.01:00:38.722 --> 01:00:40.025


It's your thing, yeah, and you know so.01:00:40.025 --> 01:00:40.364


There is.01:00:40.364 --> 01:00:45.666


There's hope, there's always, and as long as I stay sober, and it's about being fucking accountable, yeah.01:00:45.686 --> 01:00:46.230


There was about a time.01:00:46.295 --> 01:00:51.581


she was left on the doorstep waiting to see me and I was gone and she was left in tears.01:00:51.581 --> 01:01:07.237


Mm, do what fucking do?01:01:07.237 --> 01:01:08.559


Yeah, if I'm gonna call you at 7 30 I'll call you.01:01:08.579 --> 01:01:13.628


if I say I'm not gonna call you or text you for a week because I'm a, you know it's overwhelming for you, then I won't.01:01:13.628 --> 01:01:13.688


Um.01:01:13.688 --> 01:01:30.503


But yeah, man, I think you know and you mentioned um about you know being a dad, you know doing all those, you know she gets upset when you leave and all of that stuff, and you know of course that's kind of I've never really had that and that's you know, but then this is my fault, it's nothing to do with her.01:01:31.456 --> 01:01:33.940


This is my fault and I have to take responsibility.01:01:33.940 --> 01:01:36.784


I mean thank God for Joe, for her mum.01:01:41.257 --> 01:01:49.327


Thank God for Jo, for her mum, you know, who has just been One of the things that I do find quite comforting when getting stressed with parenting as you know sometimes happens.01:01:49.327 --> 01:02:08.746


Somebody said something to me before was imagine that you're 60 years old, your daughter's 30, and just imagine that you've just gone back in time and you're just spending the day with them and there's something about that where nothing they do will bother you in the slightest, because it goes quick.01:02:08.746 --> 01:02:11.804


I'm sure it only feels like two minutes ago since your daughter was born.01:02:11.804 --> 01:02:12.585


She's 14.01:02:12.585 --> 01:02:14.519


My daughter's two and a half.01:02:14.519 --> 01:02:15.382


She's coming up to three.01:02:16.394 --> 01:02:31.903


I was showing my colleague here a video of her from last year when she was just learning how to walk, sort of thing, and how quick that time's gone and where she is now, and I guess the one thing that I just have to remind myself is it's going to go by too quickly and there's going to be a day when right now, I'm not allowed to leave her bedroom until she falls asleep.01:02:31.903 --> 01:02:34.626


The second I start to go, there's a no, no, no, no sort.01:02:34.626 --> 01:02:38.228


There'll soon be a time when it'll be close the door on your way out.01:02:38.869 --> 01:02:44.623


Yeah you should go like yeah, whatever, dad exactly yeah, so it is something about that.01:02:44.623 --> 01:02:46.293


And to be honest, don't understand.01:02:48.621 --> 01:03:00.492


I could probably talk parenting with you, but, tom, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the Believe in People podcast, and one of the things that I like to do with all our guests is just ask 10 quickfire questions.01:03:00.492 --> 01:03:03.202


Sure, nothing related to what we've spoken about so far.01:03:03.202 --> 01:03:06.021


And my first question for you is what is your favourite word?01:03:06.021 --> 01:03:07.945


Serendipity?01:03:07.945 --> 01:03:18.199


Least favourite word Addiction Tell me something that excites you, something that excites me.01:03:18.199 --> 01:03:21.021


Watching really good movies.01:03:21.021 --> 01:03:22.657


Tell me something that doesn't excite you.01:03:22.677 --> 01:03:30.139


That's boring the commute to work.01:03:31.454 --> 01:03:32.641


What sound or noise do you love?01:03:32.641 --> 01:03:34.840


Sound of my daughter's voice.01:03:35.059 --> 01:03:36.043


That's lovely, oh God, that's pathetic.01:03:36.043 --> 01:03:36.965


No, it's lovely.01:03:36.965 --> 01:03:37.235


What?01:03:37.255 --> 01:03:37.735


sound or noise?01:03:37.735 --> 01:03:39.077


Do you hear my voice?01:03:39.097 --> 01:03:39.876


What's your favourite?01:03:39.916 --> 01:03:40.257


swear God.01:03:40.257 --> 01:03:40.657


That's pathetic.01:03:40.657 --> 01:03:41.099


No, it's lovely.01:03:41.099 --> 01:03:43.059


What sound or noise do you hear my voice?01:03:43.059 --> 01:03:44.442


What's your favourite swear word, mother, cunt?01:03:44.442 --> 01:03:51.268


What profession other than your own would you like to attempt, doctor?01:03:51.268 --> 01:04:00.744


And then, lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates um, come in.01:04:00.744 --> 01:04:03.543


Thank you, tom, you have been wonderful.01:04:03.543 --> 01:04:09.489


Thank you, and if you've enjoyed this episode of the believing people podcast, please check out the other episodes and hit that subscribe button.01:04:09.489 --> 01:04:14.532


We're on apple music and spotify, so please like and subscribe to be notified about our new episodes.01:04:14.532 --> 01:04:22.503


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