#61 - Paul Haley: Heroin Addiction, Lived Experience Catalyst, Challenging Stigma, Imposter Syndrome & Advocacy In Recovery Services

WEBVTT

00:00:00.119 --> 00:00:02.128
This is a Renew Original Recording.

00:00:02.128 --> 00:00:10.147
Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a British podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma.

00:00:10.147 --> 00:00:14.683
My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or, as I like to say, your facilitator.

00:00:14.683 --> 00:00:24.109
Today, I'm joined by Paul Haley, changegrowlive's National Service Use Involvement Lead, who shares his remarkable journey from heroin and crack cocaine addiction to nearly two decades of sobriety.

00:00:24.109 --> 00:00:34.570
After reaching rock bottom, Paul rebuilt his life with resilience, purpose and a deep commitment to supporting others, demonstrating that recovery isn't just possible but truly transformative.

00:00:34.570 --> 00:00:41.871
As our conversation began, I reflected on how, despite knowing Paul for a long time, I'd only recently learned about his lived experience.

00:00:41.871 --> 00:00:46.850
Paul mentioned that he assumed everyone knew he was in recovery, almost as if it was an unspoken truth.

00:00:46.850 --> 00:00:54.146
In truth about this, I asked him about what it was like to have addiction shape so much of his identity and how that influenced the way that he saw himself and the world around him.

00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:58.189
Paul welcome to the Believe in People podcast.

00:00:58.189 --> 00:00:58.691
Thank you.

00:00:58.691 --> 00:01:00.161
Thank you for joining us.

00:01:00.161 --> 00:01:05.028
I've asked you to come on today because I've known you for a relatively long time.

00:01:05.028 --> 00:01:15.018
Ironically, I did say I feel like this is the first time we have met in person, but I've known you a long time, but I only recently found out that you are lived experience and you're in recovery yourself.

00:01:15.018 --> 00:01:29.141
The interesting thing that I found is, just before we started this, you said you think everybody knows you're in recovery, like we wear it like a badge, and I think that is a common misconception, isn't it that when, when you are in recovery, you feel like everybody knows everything about you?

00:01:29.141 --> 00:01:31.750
Yeah, tell me, talk to me a little bit about that.

00:01:31.750 --> 00:01:33.013
To begin with, what's that like to?

00:01:33.013 --> 00:01:36.406
To kind of have that as such a huge part of your identity?

00:01:37.790 --> 00:01:56.974
um, it's been a positive thing for many years but it felt like a real negative thing to to start well, not exactly to start more mid-range since I since I um, I I got clean from from heroin and crack cocaine.

00:01:56.974 --> 00:02:05.415
It was, um, initially I felt, like you know, quite popular in the setting that I was in.

00:02:05.415 --> 00:02:08.109
People were interested, wanted to hear what I had to say.

00:02:08.109 --> 00:02:12.247
I was a service user rep, so that part was good.

00:02:12.247 --> 00:02:17.765
But then I moved into employment and there was a part of that where I think this was partly me.

00:02:17.765 --> 00:02:22.150
I had that imposter syndrome.

00:02:22.150 --> 00:02:23.907
I felt like I shouldn't be there.

00:02:23.907 --> 00:02:26.100
I was struggling with the other professionals the addiction therapists, and that imposter syndrome.

00:02:26.100 --> 00:02:26.185
I felt like I shouldn't be there.

00:02:26.185 --> 00:02:35.233
I was struggling with the other professionals, the addiction therapists and that kind of stuff, and I felt a bit stigmatized slightly in terms of my ex-service user.

00:02:35.233 --> 00:02:39.168
There's a lot they can't do in this setting, but you know that was 20 years ago.

00:02:40.181 --> 00:02:43.750
The positives of wearing that badge, so to speak.

00:02:43.750 --> 00:03:04.429
In the here and now with the, I feel like service user involvement has come up the ladder in terms of priority now it's a big big thing and being able to work doing certain projects I've done Hidden in Plain Sight, domino Effect, that kind of stuff, being part and parcel of groups.

00:03:04.429 --> 00:03:30.290
You know, with lived experience, having that lived experience myself, being able to relate, get involved, I found it an asset really and I feel now I'm I'm easy to to share that that's why I'm here, I suppose, because there was a time where I just went back on it and never really mentioned it and never disclosed.

00:03:30.290 --> 00:03:34.090
You know, I didn't really have reason to department I was in, I don't suppose.

00:03:34.090 --> 00:03:43.830
But now, service User Involvement, department equality, diversity and inclusion, yeah, I utilise it, I like it, it's a real positive thing.

00:03:44.379 --> 00:04:12.728
I think in sectors sectors like this you know that lived experience voice now is is probably more important than ever, and I think there was a time for me, when being at being the service user involvement lead for my local service, that it often felt a little tokenistic like, oh, we need to hear feedback from people with lived experience because of a commissioner report or something like that, and now I feel like that's kind of really embedded into the practice in terms of co-production elements of the service and how this comes through.

00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:14.384
So you know you yourself.

00:04:14.384 --> 00:04:20.370
You've worked in for this organisation in particular for the last nearly 20 years 19 years, 19 years.

00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:22.326
January the 6th.

00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:31.983
So with that that level of abstinence, then what's changed for you in, because it's such a long period of time?

00:04:31.983 --> 00:04:42.653
And I guess the point that I'm trying to quickly get to is the the difference between um being in recovery and recovered now after 19 years of working in the service.

00:04:42.653 --> 00:04:45.839
How long have you been abstinent now from heroin and crack cocaine?

00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:48.264
So 2003,.

00:04:49.646 --> 00:05:03.531
I had a severe injecting injury like really bad, and it took me about six months after that before I became abstinent from heroin.

00:05:03.531 --> 00:05:06.928
Crack seemed to fall off the cliff straight away.

00:05:07.963 --> 00:05:11.088
It was heroin Was that like a byproduct of using heroin as well.

00:05:11.641 --> 00:05:12.725
Yeah with it all.

00:05:12.725 --> 00:05:20.927
But the recovery recovered element and that message for me, I don't knock it.

00:05:20.927 --> 00:05:29.447
I don't knock the fact that people follow that I'm in recovery, I'm recovered, that kind of thing For me.

00:05:29.447 --> 00:05:34.033
I'm an addict, I have always been an addict.

00:05:34.033 --> 00:05:37.677
And you still identify as an addict even now, and I'm an addict now, and do you know something?

00:05:38.740 --> 00:05:41.769
I hear so much negativity about that word.

00:05:41.769 --> 00:05:48.052
How people are, do you know, called an addict and for me I'm proud.

00:05:48.052 --> 00:06:09.067
Bizarrely, you might not get where I'm going with this yet, but I'm proud to be an addict and the simple reason is it's what I've been from a child before heroin addiction, before crack cocaine, before alcoholism, to Mazipap, whatever I've been addicted to, they were negative addictions for me.

00:06:09.067 --> 00:06:22.228
I have an addictive personality and I was brought up being told you're addictive, like it's some disability and weakness that you shouldn't have and you shouldn't allow, do you know, to feed that addictive personality.

00:06:22.228 --> 00:06:24.706
And I believed that.

00:06:24.706 --> 00:06:25.946
I thought that's the case.

00:06:25.946 --> 00:06:29.610
Addiction is terrible, and why is it me that's like this?

00:06:29.610 --> 00:06:39.399
But I sort of fell into addiction, these negative addictions early 1990s.

00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:41.166
It's a bizarre story really.

00:06:41.166 --> 00:06:46.007
So I'm a bit of an ornithologist.

00:06:46.007 --> 00:06:51.204
That's one of them a bird watcher, okay, a twitcher yeah, a twitcher, a twitcher.

00:06:51.966 --> 00:06:56.233
So basically as a kid, um, I was quite obsessive.

00:06:56.233 --> 00:06:57.182
It was identified.

00:06:57.182 --> 00:07:00.413
You know he's a bit obsessive, he's a bit can be a bit funny.

00:07:00.413 --> 00:07:03.362
So this obsession came about.

00:07:03.362 --> 00:07:27.139
There'd been all kinds of obsessions as a kid would toys, sports, I loved athletics, I was a champion, runner and all that carry on at some point in school and ornithology were the big thing, um, and I used to spend a lot of time looking into birds and anyway, my favorite birds, and just bear with me because it's bizarre how I'm going from birds to addiction.

00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:30.149
I'm interested to see where it goes, but go on carry on.

00:07:30.459 --> 00:07:32.548
So basically it was Birds of Prey.

00:07:32.548 --> 00:07:41.833
So as a kid I see this film, the Beastmaster, and there's this dude with a pet tiger and a bird an eagle.

00:07:41.833 --> 00:07:44.637
So I found out falconry existed.

00:07:44.637 --> 00:07:44.492
A bird, an eagle so I found out falconry existed.

00:07:44.492 --> 00:07:50.588
So basically, next thing, it's orchestral for a knave.

00:07:50.790 --> 00:07:53.867
That book Barry Hines' Kez with Billy Casper.

00:07:53.867 --> 00:07:55.685
So I watched that.

00:07:55.685 --> 00:08:00.822
So I'm growing up at this point I'm getting about 11, 12 years of age, so I watch this.

00:08:00.822 --> 00:08:02.985
Billy Casper, he goes to get his falconry book.

00:08:02.985 --> 00:08:08.524
Where does he go Library and they say, oh no, you can't take it, you're not a member.

00:08:08.524 --> 00:08:10.004
So he goes and steals one.

00:08:11.165 --> 00:08:18.531
So that was the thing for me, bizarre as it sounds, where I sort of switched path.

00:08:18.531 --> 00:08:24.357
So quite a nice hobby of ornithology and the thought of falconry.

00:08:24.357 --> 00:08:31.488
It bizarrely led me into crime because I watched that film and as a kid thought, right, so I stole this book.

00:08:31.488 --> 00:08:37.328
And then before I knew it, I come quite obsessive about theft.

00:08:37.328 --> 00:08:44.366
I started to steal, I started to understand it hang on a minute, I haven't really got much of my kid, but I get that.

00:08:44.366 --> 00:08:48.073
And then what came is I started to meet people.

00:08:48.073 --> 00:08:55.788
They were shoplifting peers, older people that were around Crossgates in Leeds, where I'm from.

00:08:55.788 --> 00:09:01.807
And then I learned, right, I steal these things, this is how I can now turn it into money.

00:09:01.807 --> 00:09:04.748
So you start to turn things into money.

00:09:04.788 --> 00:09:08.966
Then Then the next step thing, school.

00:09:08.966 --> 00:09:21.708
Um, that were, you know, we're all there with the center partings and that in 1990s, and basically we had to do um work experience.

00:09:21.708 --> 00:09:24.711
So I said I'd like to go with the fire service.

00:09:24.711 --> 00:09:27.554
No, no, they didn't.

00:09:27.554 --> 00:09:30.408
Um, no, you can't go with fire service, they're not teching.

00:09:30.408 --> 00:09:31.573
So I had nowhere to go.

00:09:31.594 --> 00:09:36.687
So I ended up in a factory, this factory again full of older lads, peers.

00:09:36.687 --> 00:09:38.991
Now I was already getting a bit of money.

00:09:38.991 --> 00:09:41.724
No, I'm not talking the earth, you know what I mean.

00:09:41.724 --> 00:09:45.900
But these older lads, they give me that direct access to drugs.

00:09:45.900 --> 00:09:48.927
Or do you smoke, spliff, or do you do this?

00:09:48.927 --> 00:09:49.869
Are you taking acid?

00:09:49.869 --> 00:09:50.791
Are you doing easy?

00:09:50.791 --> 00:09:52.981
So I had that direct link.

00:09:53.462 --> 00:10:06.222
So from bizarrely watching a film to then getting the confidence to start shoplifting, just because billy casper did just that childish mentality at that age.

00:10:06.222 --> 00:10:21.115
Over time it sort of took me down a path and I ended up at about age 14, 15, where I just decided do you know what I'm done, done with school, I'm done.

00:10:21.115 --> 00:10:22.984
I'm not doing it anymore.

00:10:22.984 --> 00:11:02.904
The fear of having to go in and do a part of, like a presentation about my work experience with a tipping factor, and I just packed schooling and started knocking about with these lads all the lads, um, from cross gates, like I say and drugs just came straight in and with my addictive personality, with money in my pocket, I latched on and because I was part of a gang and I was part, you know, peers older they were a lot older than us um, but then eventually down, tight down the line, I just sort of shrugged everyone else off and just thought I'm gonna get on with this on my own.

00:11:02.904 --> 00:11:05.491
People, would you know, try to tech from you.

00:11:06.061 --> 00:11:10.928
It was all the lads influencing you Come with us, do this kind of thing.

00:11:10.928 --> 00:11:14.846
And eventually it was like do one, I'd do this on my own.

00:11:14.846 --> 00:11:22.226
But yeah, that's basically how I got into like full-blown heroin addiction.

00:11:23.364 --> 00:11:47.302
Early 1990s Sorry, no, mid to late 1990s, um and just just to talk about a little bit with your childhood and that then, like I, I always think it's really interesting, because sometimes when we have these conversations, um, a reason for substance misuse or that addictive personality is is isn't necessarily the behaviors as such, it's how those behaviors make us feel.

00:11:47.302 --> 00:12:02.173
For instance, were you with a stealing, there must have been some sort of dopamine release there that made you feel good about it, you enjoyed it and how it made you feel and and people often talk about escapism through substances what was your childhood like?

00:12:02.173 --> 00:12:04.462
What was your relationship like with you, with your mum and dad?

00:12:04.462 --> 00:12:11.601
Um, did that have any impact on that um thrill-seeking behavior that you was, that you was trying to get?

00:12:12.283 --> 00:12:17.232
well, I was born with a single mum.

00:12:17.232 --> 00:12:28.390
Okay, my mum was, I think, 17 when she gave birth to me, um, and we lived with my grandma and grandad and the family home was amazing.

00:12:28.390 --> 00:12:30.673
It was such a lovely place to be.

00:12:30.673 --> 00:12:46.750
This is where I might get a bit like emotional, but yeah, it were really good in them, early years, I suppose, and do you know, when you feel the love too?

00:12:46.750 --> 00:12:57.134
And I, I think, late down the line, we moved with obviously you know she's my mom were working and stuff.

00:12:57.134 --> 00:13:11.524
So I was spending a lot of time with my grandma and granddad, but my mom moved and I went with my mum, obviously, but, um, my dad, my real dad, as I call him non-existent he was a soldier, I didn't know he was.

00:13:11.524 --> 00:13:31.559
I remember going to school and we had to see um father driver, the um priest, and I was that young, I didn't even really know and he presented himself as father driver in Palace my mum by basically saying oh, are you my father?

00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:33.206
Because you know.

00:13:33.961 --> 00:13:36.181
I was a kid like a really young kid.

00:13:36.181 --> 00:13:43.655
I remember, like other kids at school, going what you don't have a dad and I were like what's a dad?

00:13:43.655 --> 00:13:45.416
So I didn't have a dad.

00:13:45.416 --> 00:13:49.095
I had an uncle, john, who was like a big brother.

00:13:49.095 --> 00:13:56.706
My grandma, my grandad.

00:13:56.706 --> 00:14:02.517
Just give me a minute, just one second.

00:14:02.517 --> 00:14:16.350
Sorry, sorry, man, he does this to me every time, sorry take your time sorry mate honestly so yeah, let me just get a grip of my emotions.

00:14:18.177 --> 00:14:29.836
So yeah, it was a nice, nice upbringing up to a certain point, and then it was quite apparent I didn't fit in into someone else's agenda as a young kid.

00:14:30.677 --> 00:14:34.010
So Whose agenda is that Well?

00:14:34.071 --> 00:14:54.201
that's my stepdad, that was my stepdad that come along, pretend to be, do you know, like a bit of a geezer at times, but in reality there's certain things and I'm just mushy, I get, I get mushy with it.

00:14:54.201 --> 00:15:01.837
So basically, what I did is I lived for a weekend, I spent a lot of time with my grandparents and they were, they were amazing, they were.

00:15:01.837 --> 00:15:10.451
They were so for me to go down the road that went.

00:15:10.451 --> 00:15:20.160
They suffered, they did suffer and I were.

00:15:20.160 --> 00:15:20.902
Do you know?

00:15:20.902 --> 00:15:23.443
I carried the guilt of that for some time.

00:15:23.443 --> 00:15:45.019
Yeah, it was difficult, really difficult, but you know, I did what I did and I think that if I hadn't have done that and I hadn't lived the life I lived, I wouldn't be the person that I am today and I'm quite proud of the person that I am today.

00:15:45.631 --> 00:15:57.299
Like I say, the addictive personality side of things and the original question before my emotions got a grip of me, the original question about recovery and being recovered.

00:15:57.299 --> 00:15:59.336
I don't look at it like that.

00:15:59.336 --> 00:16:02.500
I look at it now like I'm an addict.

00:16:02.500 --> 00:16:10.561
I'm no longer fighting with my addictions internally, which is difficult when you are.

00:16:10.561 --> 00:16:18.655
You've got this really solid addictive personality where you latch on to things and what it worries.

00:16:19.498 --> 00:16:21.101
I would always attach to negatives.

00:16:21.101 --> 00:16:32.298
Maybe it had something to do with me upbringing and that when it came to not really feeling wanted, that you know you wanted to be loved.

00:16:32.298 --> 00:16:37.740
You didn't have a dad, that kind of Maybe that were some sort of trauma that were part and parcel of that.

00:16:37.740 --> 00:16:41.562
I don't know, but I wouldn't really blame that.

00:16:41.562 --> 00:16:49.881
I think it was just the culture, the environment and where I lived that got me in to drug addiction.

00:16:49.881 --> 00:16:51.184
Because I wasn't at school.

00:16:51.184 --> 00:17:04.762
I was knocking about with all the lads I was shoplifting, there were money there and I'm a recovered.

00:17:04.762 --> 00:17:07.925
No, no, I'm called that.

00:17:07.925 --> 00:17:09.392
I'd say I'm still an addict.

00:17:09.392 --> 00:17:14.303
But what I do is now I focus my addictive personality on positive things.

00:17:14.303 --> 00:17:27.046
So work is key, family life um, that you know, that kind of stuff health, rather than pushing down these negative avenues of addiction.

00:17:27.046 --> 00:17:35.977
Recent years I fell into a path again with alcohol Really difficult time.

00:17:35.977 --> 00:17:39.018
So I'm estranged from my mum, I don't speak to her.

00:17:41.933 --> 00:17:44.888
Is that because of things that had happened in your childhood?

00:17:44.949 --> 00:17:49.781
Yeah, Without getting into it.

00:17:49.781 --> 00:17:52.317
No, I'm not going to push on anything.

00:17:52.337 --> 00:17:52.980
Do you know what I mean?

00:17:53.653 --> 00:17:59.839
Defend herself, I was left feeling deceived and I didn't trust her.

00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:15.596
And when I took the step To do all the positive things, one key thing that I found let's call it in recovery is I've had to remove people that I've deemed as negative in me in my life.

00:18:15.596 --> 00:18:26.763
I've had to remove people because it was draining me, making my mindset so that it wasn't as positive as it should have been and it could take me down dark avenues.

00:18:26.763 --> 00:18:36.477
Then, which is what occurred I went through a separation which I welcomed, if I'm being honest and I took my three children.

00:18:36.477 --> 00:18:39.839
When I say took, I mean my eldest wanted to come along.

00:18:41.413 --> 00:18:44.582
I didn't go in the midst of the night and run away with my kids.

00:18:45.752 --> 00:18:52.378
My younger two ended up coming with me, so that were all occurring.

00:18:52.378 --> 00:19:05.462
There were all these issues occurring with shit from my past and memories and trouble and all this deceitful area within my family.

00:19:05.462 --> 00:19:16.920
So you know, I felt really let down and I felt very angry and I became quite an angry, angry person and I was stressed a lot and unhappy.

00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.064
In all honesty Don't get me wrong.

00:19:19.064 --> 00:19:20.752
There were some real big positives in my life.

00:19:20.752 --> 00:19:41.502
I had my three kids with me and I tried my best to be round them, but nevertheless the button got pushed and I started drinking and it was like it wasn't like alcohol per se, it's like any alcohol that I'm sorry, I'm desperate to drink it.

00:19:41.502 --> 00:19:43.237
It was Peroni.

00:19:43.237 --> 00:19:47.173
It had to be Peroni Specifically, specifically Bazaar.

00:19:47.173 --> 00:19:48.137
That's interesting.

00:19:48.609 --> 00:19:54.176
Well, it all started because I wasn't really a big drinker and Bazaarly we work.

00:19:54.176 --> 00:20:01.181
We went to do some training in London and one of my colleagues said we'll go for a meal the night before.

00:20:01.181 --> 00:20:05.631
So I went for a meal, right, I'm gonna have a drink.

00:20:05.631 --> 00:20:09.238
She said I'm gonna pick a drink.

00:20:09.238 --> 00:20:10.881
I went oh no, I'll just have a diet coke.

00:20:10.881 --> 00:20:11.402
I'm fine.

00:20:11.402 --> 00:20:12.710
No, pick a drink.

00:20:12.710 --> 00:20:16.038
I'm thinking, did she know you was in like?

00:20:16.057 --> 00:20:19.510
yeah, yeah, yeah, jesus, I didn't think, got it I don't think she understood.

00:20:19.570 --> 00:20:21.213
I don't think she got, evidently yeah.

00:20:21.213 --> 00:20:25.803
So no, no, get a drink.

00:20:25.803 --> 00:20:28.452
No, I insist, I'll just have a diet coke.

00:20:28.452 --> 00:20:29.977
Can I have a slice of lime in it?

00:20:29.977 --> 00:20:33.109
Well, I'll tell you what I'll do.

00:20:33.109 --> 00:20:37.798
I'll buy you one anyway and said it's a premium lager now.

00:20:37.798 --> 00:20:39.182
I used to.

00:20:39.182 --> 00:20:43.357
I'd go to christmas dinner and stuff when I were younger and just not have a drop.

00:20:43.357 --> 00:20:44.320
It just didn't bother me.

00:20:45.589 --> 00:20:55.537
This pint bang put that back with all the other shit that were going on in my life the stress, the anger, everything that I was thinking about.

00:20:55.537 --> 00:21:00.181
It became quite a nice start and it became a bit of a comfort thing.

00:21:00.181 --> 00:21:03.607
I look back five years on.

00:21:03.607 --> 00:21:09.680
From that point I'd put on about four stone and I looked at myself.

00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:13.275
I remember thinking what the fuck have you done?

00:21:13.275 --> 00:21:14.298
What have you?

00:21:14.298 --> 00:21:15.804
How has this happened to you again?

00:21:15.804 --> 00:21:22.636
You were an heroin addict, you've shrugged that off and now, all of of a sudden, you're stuck in this again.

00:21:22.636 --> 00:21:37.650
Anyway, bizarrely, I fell down a flight of stairs, quite a big block, damaged me back, found myself off work, found myself on tablets, pain relief and stuff.

00:21:37.650 --> 00:21:42.378
I'd made a mess of me back, anyway, went back to work.

00:21:42.378 --> 00:21:48.545
I'd made a mess of my back.

00:21:48.545 --> 00:21:50.006
Anyway, went back to work.

00:21:50.006 --> 00:21:51.146
Things hadn't changed.

00:21:51.146 --> 00:21:53.107
Do you know I was still drinking heavily on a weekend?

00:21:53.107 --> 00:21:57.861
Do you know lads that were knocking about with the nickname of Ten Pints Paul?

00:21:58.483 --> 00:22:01.212
you know, it's a great nickname yeah.

00:22:01.232 --> 00:22:06.682
Ten Pints, paul, and it was like I was in that scene again.

00:22:06.682 --> 00:22:32.400
I was in that scene but Spirit started to sneak in and then this day woke up middle of the night with this pain, like really bad pain, in my stomach, um, and had it like disabilitating.

00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:35.644
I'm thinking, oh no, there's something seriously wrong here.

00:22:35.644 --> 00:22:51.442
So, basically, hospital, all these tests, sick note after sick note after sick note, time off, work, like what's going on, and I found myself a lot of the time because I was in pain, I couldn't drink.

00:22:51.442 --> 00:22:58.646
So that just faded away, but I was still left there, overweight, mentally ill.

00:22:58.646 --> 00:23:08.318
If I, if I'm being totally honest, um, really struggling with life, and just you know he'd wake up, I'd know to get up, for at the time I'd sleep when I want, in pain.

00:23:08.318 --> 00:23:25.913
Anyway, I'm on my phone, flicking through my phone, and I started following tyson fury, bizarrely, because it's just these little things in life, but for me, with this addictive personality, it's like have that pint of premium lager, bam, I'm gone.

00:23:25.913 --> 00:23:27.338
Five years later, a mess.

00:23:27.338 --> 00:23:36.323
It's like being introduced to heroin 10 years later, before what occurred happened and I, I got off the heroin.

00:23:36.323 --> 00:23:42.826
So tyson fury's on there and he just pops up on this thing on instagram anyone that's in recovery.

00:23:43.428 --> 00:23:46.474
If you don't have a positive mindset, don't waste your time.

00:23:46.474 --> 00:23:51.763
Bang went well, I just got a fair point.

00:23:51.763 --> 00:23:55.721
Actually, I started thinking about I ain't got a positive mindset at all.

00:23:55.721 --> 00:23:58.911
I'm just thinking bad shit all the time.

00:23:58.911 --> 00:24:08.859
Negative stuff, focused on past, looking at all these different things that I felt other people had let me down about and I thought listen, this is your life.

00:24:08.859 --> 00:24:10.412
You need to be positive.

00:24:10.412 --> 00:24:14.871
Think of the positive things you've got and think of what you can do, what you're capable of.

00:24:14.871 --> 00:24:34.770
Um, this, bizarrely, again tom hardy pops up and I don't even know if he said this, but this thing come on the screen and it basically said all my life I've been told that addiction is a disability and weakness.

00:24:34.770 --> 00:24:35.813
It's not.

00:24:35.813 --> 00:24:38.997
If used correctly, it can be like a superpower.

00:24:38.997 --> 00:24:44.826
And it were like this turning moment, just this little do you know?

00:24:44.826 --> 00:24:48.039
Comment that I read on a phone just went bang.

00:24:49.390 --> 00:24:53.241
I started to apply what positive mindset?

00:24:53.241 --> 00:25:14.910
Get up on my feet again, started to apply positive, positive things into my life, um, routine, um, managing my diabetes type 1 diabetes correctly, exercise, getting out with dogs, going to the gym, all that kind of carry on, and I felt myself getting better.

00:25:14.910 --> 00:25:23.830
I mean, don't get me wrong, I took the odd knock and fell down on one knee on occasion and there were certain people out there that I could see would try to keep me down.

00:25:23.830 --> 00:25:31.983
Just had to be strong, I suppose, and stand up and and push forward like I had done.

00:25:31.983 --> 00:25:42.782
You know, I kept telling myself, mate, you were an heroin addict for 10 years and you come out of that, this should be a doddle started losing weight and started enjoying life again.

00:25:42.782 --> 00:25:46.511
Yeah, and I mean by that point I'd got a new part.

00:25:46.511 --> 00:25:47.874
I was with my new partner.

00:25:47.874 --> 00:25:52.521
Um, my kids were growing up.

00:25:52.521 --> 00:26:05.800
They were, you know, they were starting college, going to york, um, college, miss, one son were a boxer, a rapper, and you know, I had a lot there around me to be proud of.

00:26:05.881 --> 00:26:10.385
And people at work then started to see that and I got some really good opportunities at work.

00:26:10.385 --> 00:26:21.634
I got a lot of support from one of the directors, david, but he'd moved on and a new supervisor popped up.

00:26:21.634 --> 00:26:24.635
I've been here that long I've lost count of the amount of people that have supervised me.

00:26:24.635 --> 00:26:31.300
But Chris Benfield turned up and he understood, supported me.

00:26:31.300 --> 00:26:33.301
I explained everything to him.

00:26:33.301 --> 00:26:36.344
He supported me and he gave me some opportunity.

00:26:36.344 --> 00:26:47.232
So I started to think right, you've got this personality, apply it at work the best you can.

00:26:47.232 --> 00:26:48.615
We did the volunteer movies.

00:26:48.615 --> 00:26:51.462
We did the um volunteer advertisement with a group of people.

00:26:51.462 --> 00:26:54.895
We lived experience of alcoholism when we did that.

00:26:54.895 --> 00:27:06.269
I think I were two, two years prior to that, when I virtually stopped drinking, still drink, but on occasion and not to extremes that I didn't.

00:27:06.309 --> 00:27:09.398
It doesn't cause a trigger and a relapse, or anything like that does it?

00:27:09.398 --> 00:27:09.800
No, no.

00:27:11.534 --> 00:27:17.557
I've got a partner that I love to bits, my fiancée Louise, and she keeps me in place.

00:27:17.557 --> 00:27:18.615
She keeps an eye on this.

00:27:18.615 --> 00:27:32.070
She's well aware of what I'm like, what my triggers are, how I can go, and you know, it's not, there's not much effort in it, I don't think, in terms of negatives, to pull me a different way.

00:27:32.070 --> 00:27:36.083
Now I'm with my partner, I love my children, I love her.

00:27:36.083 --> 00:27:37.406
Her family are amazing.

00:27:37.406 --> 00:27:48.836
So I'm now part and parcel of of louise's family and such a warm, loving family that you know all this positivity around me generates positivity.

00:27:48.836 --> 00:27:50.675
Yeah, infectious, isn't it?

00:27:50.675 --> 00:27:51.839
It's very infectious.

00:27:51.839 --> 00:28:05.406
And when I look back to the negative times in my life, with the negative addictions heroin, crack, coke, alcohol, all that carry on I were in a very bad situation in life.

00:28:05.406 --> 00:28:07.692
I was really unhappy with the situation I was in.

00:28:07.692 --> 00:28:12.662
So all that was negative, um, and it it's.

00:28:12.662 --> 00:28:19.923
It always sort of before, though I'd change before, that addictive personality would snap and go different direction.

00:28:19.923 --> 00:28:32.660
Snap and go different direction, um, I always found myself face down in the dirt before I'd actually stand up and do out about it.

00:28:32.660 --> 00:28:40.758
The heroin um, the trigger to stop heroin, I I injected like a full syringe of street heroin into an artery and it's when it's pink.

00:28:40.758 --> 00:28:42.059
Stop and think.

00:28:42.059 --> 00:28:44.892
There were no stopping and thinking for me that day.

00:28:44.892 --> 00:28:46.275
All my veins were collapsing.

00:28:46.275 --> 00:28:47.798
You know we'd had a good run.

00:28:47.798 --> 00:28:48.780
I'd had a good run.

00:28:48.780 --> 00:28:53.742
I think, um, I'd had a lot of, I'm not gonna lie, I'd had a lot of fun in part of.

00:28:54.003 --> 00:28:56.009
You know, we were shoplifters.

00:28:56.009 --> 00:29:03.086
Yeah, we used to obtain lots of goods the way we did and we'd get a lot of money doing that.

00:29:03.086 --> 00:29:04.869
In the 1990s.

00:29:04.869 --> 00:29:13.176
You know, sometimes £300, £400 a day in the 1990s, I'd say, were quite a lot of money.

00:29:13.176 --> 00:29:13.912
Don't get me wrong.

00:29:13.912 --> 00:29:17.614
It's not Brinks, matt robbery, I don't like that, it's just you know.

00:29:17.614 --> 00:29:20.877
So there were money clothes on my back, trainers on my feet and all that carry on.

00:29:20.877 --> 00:29:23.853
Now there were money clothes on my back, trainers on my feet and all that Carry on.

00:29:23.853 --> 00:29:28.000
Now I got into heroin, looking up and looking up at the other people.

00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.804
They were driving around in XR3Is, xr2s.

00:29:33.849 --> 00:29:35.019
You know, you didn't see the badness that was behind it all.

00:29:35.019 --> 00:29:36.289
I was going to say you're only seeing the positives, aren't you?

00:29:36.289 --> 00:29:36.991
Yeah?

00:29:37.333 --> 00:29:39.117
you're seeing, we go and have a laugh.

00:29:39.117 --> 00:29:40.101
We go shoplifting.

00:29:40.101 --> 00:29:40.753
We go around North.

00:29:40.753 --> 00:29:41.357
A laugh We'd go shoplifting.

00:29:41.357 --> 00:29:47.012
We'd go around North Yorkshire, we'd travel about in these cars, we'd get this money and we'd go and it was fun.

00:29:47.012 --> 00:29:50.622
But then it wasn't fun.

00:29:51.109 --> 00:29:53.217
There comes a time when the party stops, doesn't it?

00:29:53.217 --> 00:29:53.818
And it did stop.

00:29:54.611 --> 00:29:57.000
It did stop really harshly and hard.

00:29:58.771 --> 00:30:23.012
Tell me about this then, because with yourself and you might be getting to this point already anyway, so sorry to interject, but with the problems with alcohol, specifically Peroni, you just said that because of the back injury, that just sort of disappeared over time what was the moment in terms of the heroin and the crack addiction where it was right, party's over now, rock bottom, life's low need to sort this shit out, basically, yeah, so party's over now, rock bottom, life's low.

00:30:23.032 --> 00:30:23.614
Need to sort this shit out.

00:30:23.614 --> 00:30:25.076
Basically, yeah, so party's over.

00:30:25.076 --> 00:30:30.522
You've injected a load of street heroin into your artery when it's pink.

00:30:30.522 --> 00:30:40.176
Stop and think, like I say no thinking panicking, trying to get it in to feel well so I can get out at dawn and go try and get some more money to sort myself out later in the day.

00:30:42.030 --> 00:31:12.265
That moment that I did that to myself, the, the feeling of pain, was something that I had never, ever felt in my entire life like this electrical nerve pain down my left arm from my elbow to my hand, and, I kid you not, I screamed at the highest pitch I have ever heard in my entire life and I immediately knew oh shit, I've done something severe here.

00:31:12.265 --> 00:31:12.886
This is bad.

00:31:12.886 --> 00:31:19.076
My arm started to swell stupidly, went off, thought no, it'll be.

00:31:19.076 --> 00:31:24.625
Went and got some more heroin, took that and then went and had to go to hospital.

00:31:24.625 --> 00:31:26.454
Went to hospital.

00:31:26.454 --> 00:31:38.076
There's a big waiting room of people and they rushed me straight in and I thought, shit, and everyone I remember yeah, you've to be a fucking junkie to get anywhere in this hospital.

00:31:39.250 --> 00:31:51.059
Anyway, I got in and basically what they did is one of the consultants, or whoever they were, said we might have to remove your arm from the elbow down.

00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:55.200
So bizarrely, the first thing I thought.

00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:03.478
I used to work on bins years back and there was a bloke who got his arm trapped in the back of a bin wagon and everybody nicknamed him Stumpy.

00:32:04.411 --> 00:32:06.498
Is this like a real story or like an urban legend?

00:32:06.498 --> 00:32:08.857
No, it happened, he was there.

00:32:09.131 --> 00:32:13.337
He used to do all books and that, oh Stumpy, bless him.

00:32:13.337 --> 00:32:19.323
And rather than me thinking, oh shit, I might not have a left arm.

00:32:19.323 --> 00:32:22.375
How will I operate without a left arm?

00:32:22.375 --> 00:32:29.095
The first thing I thought is, fuck, my mates are going to nickname me Stumpy and anyway.

00:32:29.095 --> 00:32:34.464
And I was just like, just when you look back and you think like that, it's like what were you thinking what?

00:32:34.505 --> 00:32:35.145
was going on in your head.

00:32:35.145 --> 00:32:39.076
That was the first concern yeah, first concern, stumpy my nickname's going to be Stumpy.

00:32:45.730 --> 00:33:02.498
So anyway, they did the operation that opened my arm from the elbow to the palm of my hand, called the fascia on me, unblocked what is your carpal tunnel in your wrist and took a skin graft off the top of my left leg and stapled it with brass staples on the open wound after three days of letting it drain.

00:33:02.498 --> 00:33:06.794
When they took that off, that was a shocking moment.

00:33:06.794 --> 00:33:13.153
When they took the pot off my arm and I had to see it open with this same skin graft on it.

00:33:13.153 --> 00:33:17.506
That that rocked me and, um, I've been on medication.

00:33:17.506 --> 00:33:18.509
My doctor were great.

00:33:18.509 --> 00:33:19.411
He looked after me.

00:33:19.411 --> 00:33:27.997
I didn't go down any of the na routes or anything like that, just want for me just just want for me any of that.

00:33:28.678 --> 00:33:31.852
Um, there were a bit of relapsing to and fro and we're smoking it.

00:33:31.852 --> 00:33:35.559
But then again I got this opportunity.

00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:45.717
I booked into college, I went to study social sciences and then hopefully be able to start applying for jobs, start to get some experience.

00:33:46.690 --> 00:34:10.184
But yeah, very quickly, from that moment of sheer terror, thinking oh no, I'm going to be called stumpy, it went from that to, yeah, I had a bandage on my arm and yeah, there were odd bit of piss-techings you know from certain people and that bandage on my arm and yeah, there were odd bit of piss techings, you know, from certain people and that, um, as you know, human race does as people I've done it myself give people a bit of a dig and that just.

00:34:10.184 --> 00:34:14.920
But I thought, nah, I've got an opportunity and I can get a career out of this.

00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:24.925
I can use all that fucking bad shit over last 10 years or whatever else, to flip it on its head and I want to be a drugs worker.

00:34:24.945 --> 00:34:33.221
That's what I'm going to do but before we move into the, the moving into the path towards being a drugs worker, that experience in hospital I found really interesting.

00:34:33.221 --> 00:34:37.635
Um, you said you experienced the sort of, I guess, the stigma from other people in that waiting room.

00:34:37.635 --> 00:34:39.751
You have to be a junkie to get anything here.

00:34:39.751 --> 00:34:46.617
Do you feel like you was tricked differently by the medical staff there for being a drug addict?

00:34:46.617 --> 00:34:53.280
Do you think there was um again that you were stigmatized by them, that you wasn't maybe taken seriously enough, that they didn't care?

00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.516
What was that like in that experience?

00:34:55.516 --> 00:35:07.617
Because I always hear I always hear interesting things about people's experience and they often think, um again, the people I haven't spoken to that they felt like they would have been trapped better if there wasn't a known heroin addict.

00:35:07.617 --> 00:35:09.751
What was your experience in that setting?

00:35:10.132 --> 00:35:13.677
that particular setting I felt all right.

00:35:13.677 --> 00:35:19.538
I thought the track me well, um, like the consultant doctor was sound with me, really nice with me.

00:35:19.538 --> 00:35:23.030
Nurses really nice with me, nurses generally nice.

00:35:23.030 --> 00:35:26.583
It wasn't like in comparison to your doctor's receptionist.

00:35:26.583 --> 00:35:30.108
Okay, yeah, I don't, because I felt it there You've experienced that before.

00:35:30.108 --> 00:35:34.101
Yeah, yeah and I felt it when I worked for Primary Care Trust as a drugs worker.

00:35:34.101 --> 00:35:38.777
I felt it from other professionals, Professionals yeah, yeah I really felt that then.

00:35:47.530 --> 00:35:49.414
But, like I say, it was a different era.

00:35:49.414 --> 00:35:54.967
In 2004, 2005, that had been um, yeah, but I have felt stigma for for openly being an addict and yeah, I've felt it.

00:35:55.027 --> 00:36:02.355
It's interesting there that for me on that story there, the people that I thought would have stigmatized you ie surgeons, consultants they hadn't.

00:36:02.355 --> 00:36:09.074
No, no, the professionals that you're working alongside, that you're there to help with that lived experience being stigmatised by them.

00:36:09.074 --> 00:36:10.057
That's quite interesting.

00:36:10.057 --> 00:36:13.096
You'd think it would be the opposite way around, for that.

00:36:13.317 --> 00:36:16.623
Yeah, bizarre, bizarre.

00:36:16.623 --> 00:36:30.222
But I've also felt this is weird because I walked into the profession thinking yeah, great my next service shoes, I'll be able to work really well with all these different people, maybe some that I know.

00:36:30.222 --> 00:36:41.853
I got this immediate feeling from the people from the local area where I was part of that drug using community.

00:36:41.853 --> 00:36:45.871
I felt like they were thinking, yeah, I don't want nothing to do with him.

00:36:45.871 --> 00:36:46.653
No, I'm not.

00:36:46.653 --> 00:36:47.797
I think he is.

00:36:47.797 --> 00:36:52.534
He thinks he's better than us and I genuinely, genuinely, didn't?

00:36:52.574 --> 00:36:57.384
I just wanted to move on with my life, do it have a career, not a job.

00:36:57.384 --> 00:37:04.452
A career, that's what I wanted, and I wanted to be able to earn some good money doing some real good things in life with people.

00:37:04.452 --> 00:37:07.998
Yeah, it won't really.

00:37:07.998 --> 00:37:18.554
I mean, don't get me wrong, I didn't know everyone, so I had quite a successful time working for the primary care trust with a lot of people, but I saw an opportunity to get out and I went out.

00:37:18.735 --> 00:37:33.460
Do you know, on the topic of that, in terms of peers and you know, being made to feel the way you, you was made to feel by them there, one of the interesting things that that I've spoken about recently with um people who use the service that are in aftercare.

00:37:33.460 --> 00:37:40.163
So the interesting thing is, when I was using, no one was offering me gear because you know you can, you're gonna pay for it.

00:37:40.163 --> 00:37:42.056
Yeah, the second, I got abstinent.

00:37:42.056 --> 00:37:44.936
Everyone starts turning up here, mate, you can have some of mine.

00:37:44.936 --> 00:37:49.161
And it goes back to the idea of your peer group.

00:37:49.161 --> 00:37:52.519
They might like to see you do well, but not better than them.

00:37:53.030 --> 00:37:58.853
And if you start to achieve recovery and they're not ready for it or they're not able to do it.

00:37:58.853 --> 00:38:04.016
They're going to try and drag you back down with them because they don't want to see you do well.

00:38:04.016 --> 00:38:05.460
Yeah, can you relate to that?

00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:06.041
Yeah?

00:38:06.422 --> 00:38:06.862
massively.

00:38:06.862 --> 00:38:13.277
But it's not just that group of people that I used to use drugs with or commit crime with.

00:38:13.277 --> 00:38:27.568
What I found a lot of the time is there were a lot of people in the community that were looking at me going yeah, scourge your cross-gates dirty, horrible heroin addicts, yeah, and it while.

00:38:27.568 --> 00:38:32.601
So they looked down on me, I felt there were quite a lot, don't get me wrong, not everybody.

00:38:32.601 --> 00:38:44.443
I've had a patent back many a time by many a person, genuine people, but there were certain people that you could tell and it always seemed to be about materialistic things if a new car turned up.

00:38:44.443 --> 00:38:52.775
So I got quite a nice car when I started with Primary Care Trust, because you got a company car so to speak.

00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:56.190
So I got myself this little lovely silver Audi A3.

00:38:56.190 --> 00:39:00.971
I sensed certain things from certain people at that point.

00:39:00.971 --> 00:39:05.304
We've got a mortgage, as you do.

00:39:05.304 --> 00:39:07.376
You've got a career, you're progressing you're moving on.

00:39:07.657 --> 00:39:08.139
Life moves on.

00:39:08.621 --> 00:39:21.085
But you'd feel that sort of from certain people, family members, not my family at that time they were behind me.

00:39:21.085 --> 00:39:26.065
My mum, she was behind me too, but there were certain elements.

00:39:26.065 --> 00:39:29.813
You could feel there were certain people and, yeah, to a degree there were certain elements.

00:39:29.813 --> 00:39:34.936
You could feel there were certain people and, yeah, to a degree there were certain characters in family that you'd feel like and community.

00:39:34.936 --> 00:39:43.152
The more you step up, you know you get your kitchen done and it's like you could sense that jealousy, jealousy.

00:39:43.152 --> 00:39:45.001
It's a true thing, it's a real thing.

00:39:45.001 --> 00:39:53.666
But, like I say, that would have percentage of people, but there were a lot of people that go, wow, is he for real?

00:39:53.666 --> 00:39:54.206
That's.

00:39:54.969 --> 00:40:16.610
You know there's some real, genuine people out there and positive people out there that just happy for you to do well and knowing how bad you've done at one point in your life, obviously yeah so I think, in terms of your career 19 years with the organisation you've progressed into so many different roles.

00:40:16.610 --> 00:40:21.088
When I first started talking to you, you was the head of accredited learning.

00:40:21.347 --> 00:40:21.849
Is that the correct?

00:40:21.869 --> 00:40:22.070
title.

00:40:22.070 --> 00:40:47.686
Now I think maybe the reason why I hadn't made the connection for you to be lived experience is because that job title head of accredited learning sounds very fancy and it's also not necessarily like a lived experience or what I would expect for someone with lived experience to be in yeah um, and I mean the role you do now, service user involvement, the national service user involvement I get that, yeah, because it's working with service users.

00:40:48.992 --> 00:40:59.081
Tell me a little bit about how your experience as an addict has influenced the work that you've done, the jobs you've had, and what has the positives been?

00:40:59.081 --> 00:41:11.581
Because, as you said, in terms of addiction, that addict mentality is not a weakness if you, if you channel that mentality, mentality into positive things, as you've said, it creates positive outcomes.

00:41:11.581 --> 00:41:19.501
So talk to me a little bit about your career in drug and alcohol treatment services it sort of come about very quickly.

00:41:19.521 --> 00:41:24.260
I didn't finish the college course that I jumped in to get me into employment.

00:41:24.260 --> 00:41:27.722
I got opportunities from basically a friend.

00:41:27.722 --> 00:41:29.579
He was my drugs worker and he basically a friend.

00:41:29.579 --> 00:41:43.449
He was my drugs worker and he became a friend and I got educated in certain ways and opportunities came to support him as he was a service user involuntarily.

00:41:43.449 --> 00:41:49.813
So I become a service user rep back in 2004, 2005.

00:41:50.322 --> 00:41:58.367
I started working with commissioners in Leeds about developing community drug treatment services where there would have changed.

00:41:58.367 --> 00:42:10.054
That would have changed from the old Leeds Addiction Unit which was a horrific environment to go into to think, oh, I've got to get off heroin, I need to stop, I need to go there.

00:42:10.054 --> 00:42:10.500
It was terrible.

00:42:10.500 --> 00:42:17.621
So we had the opportunity to start developing community drug treatment services after that there were.

00:42:17.621 --> 00:42:20.431
So that was service user representative role.

00:42:20.431 --> 00:42:31.434
After that there were then a privileged access mapping exercise that I got opportunity for paid employment in coordinating and working with a group just like myself.

00:42:31.434 --> 00:42:40.422
But I got that opportunity of getting to do research and surveys around drug abuse in East Leeds Did that.

00:42:40.422 --> 00:42:44.211
Then went to work with young people.

00:42:44.211 --> 00:43:04.360
Young people's sorry, youth offending team weren't there very long, short but small budget, short period of time into our minimization in west leeds drug treatment service and absolutely loved that job.

00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:22.476
In a needle exchange van driving, driving around West Leeds going and collecting the dirty needles, offering interventions around dam minimisation, referral options, that kind of stuff and leaving the clean needles.

00:43:22.835 --> 00:43:24.137
I love the idea of doing it in a van.

00:43:24.137 --> 00:43:26.882
I think that's a great idea, though.

00:43:26.882 --> 00:43:29.610
Going out into the community instead of expecting the community to come to you.

00:43:30.161 --> 00:43:46.539
That's a brilliant idea and meeting active people in active heroin addiction, some people that I sort of recognised from Leeds City Centre and that kind of stuff when we used to shoplift there and I absolutely fucking loved that.

00:43:46.539 --> 00:43:56.505
I really loved working there for Barker Small, small charity at one time Bramley and Rodley Community Action, something like that.

00:43:56.505 --> 00:44:05.869
It was called the work I'd done with the Primary Care Trust developing the drug treatment services.

00:44:05.869 --> 00:44:17.641
Not like it were me, don't think I was sat there on a computer doing all the path yeah, it was my feedback and supporting how the structure should be and I felt listen to too.

00:44:17.922 --> 00:44:18.182
Do you know?

00:44:18.182 --> 00:44:21.731
If I'm being honest, I did feel listen, it won't talk on this day.

00:44:21.731 --> 00:44:25.545
Um, and I got a job for primary care trust.

00:44:25.545 --> 00:44:38.653
It was like, wow, it's been what, 18 months from what happened and I've got a nhs name name badge around my neck that says drugs worker on it.

00:44:38.653 --> 00:44:39.818
I couldn't have been as proud.

00:44:39.818 --> 00:44:41.503
Honest to god, it was amazing.

00:44:41.664 --> 00:44:43.489
It makes such a big difference that I don't think.

00:44:43.489 --> 00:44:48.744
Um, I think I underestimate how much of a big deal it is to get your first name badge.

00:44:48.744 --> 00:44:50.204
I've still got it.

00:44:50.204 --> 00:44:51.527
Yeah, do you know what.

00:44:51.806 --> 00:44:52.086
I mean.

00:44:52.086 --> 00:44:56.110
But it's true, I've met so many, you know, working volunteers in the way that I do For me.

00:44:56.110 --> 00:44:57.672
I put my work badge on every day.

00:44:57.672 --> 00:44:59.655
Obviously, I don't wear a uniform, it's a badge.

00:44:59.655 --> 00:45:12.074
I maybe take it for granted a little bit, but I remember giving one of my volunteers her to go from where she was to where she is now, and I just had underestimated that completely.

00:45:12.193 --> 00:45:18.943
Yeah, I feel that it was such a proud moment I got to work there.

00:45:18.943 --> 00:45:27.664
I'll be honest, I didn't really like it because what it was there was staff that had come from the old Leeds Addiction Unit into this new structure.

00:45:27.664 --> 00:45:29.547
I don't think they were entirely happy.

00:45:30.112 --> 00:45:33.985
a lot of resentment when people move over, don't they from methods?

00:45:34.065 --> 00:45:37.092
and ways of thinking in terms of that.

00:45:37.092 --> 00:45:39.121
Does then service users?

00:45:39.121 --> 00:45:44.400
No, we don't really want to be yeah, mixing with them, yeah yeah, and having them do things.

00:45:44.460 --> 00:46:03.400
But there were one individual, steve, one of the therapists, and he took me under his wing and were like, look, you've come in from a service user background, there's certain talents there, but let me teach you this professional side of things and really started to push you on certain things.

00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:05.565
So I was there for a bit.

00:46:05.565 --> 00:46:16.625
And then that opportunity comes CRI started to come busting up the country and I put it all in the Yorkshire Evening Post loads of CRI jobs.

00:46:16.625 --> 00:46:18.690
Obviously now Change Grow Live.

00:46:18.690 --> 00:46:24.152
And I got a job, volunteer coordinator over in York.

00:46:24.152 --> 00:46:26.568
It was what I thought yeah, I think that'll be good.

00:46:26.568 --> 00:46:32.992
And we did peer mentor training.

00:46:32.992 --> 00:46:39.228
So I sort of reflected a lot back on.

00:46:40.670 --> 00:46:45.300
I did a bit, not much time, it was three weeks, trust me, it wasn't a long time.

00:46:45.300 --> 00:46:47.403
So I did three weeks in prison.

00:46:47.403 --> 00:46:55.427
Hull um come out, banked some offenses up and we're looking at 18 month.

00:46:55.427 --> 00:46:57.474
We're thinking, ah, shit, I've done it again.

00:46:57.474 --> 00:47:02.592
And I, but luckily, probation officer stepped in and said you want to do intensive probation?

00:47:02.592 --> 00:47:05.983
So I said, yeah, damn right, what, rather than go to prison?

00:47:05.983 --> 00:47:07.387
Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

00:47:07.387 --> 00:47:12.445
So I did this intensive probation and there were certain elements that were education.

00:47:12.445 --> 00:47:24.431
So when it come to working and developing this peer mentor training program and there were people already in place, you know, that had a credit, that had certain bits of accreditation, but it were pitched to I.

00:47:24.431 --> 00:47:32.152
So there were a lot of redevelopment done and I remember thinking to myself how the fuck have I ended up here?

00:47:32.152 --> 00:47:43.487
I left school at 15, having the bright idea of being some professional shoplifter extraordinaire, and now, all of it, I had no exams.

00:47:43.487 --> 00:47:48.068
You know, I passed none of my exams, not even the one where the police dropped me off at school.

00:47:48.068 --> 00:47:51.829
So how have I ended up doing this?

00:47:51.829 --> 00:48:02.331
And it felt like the right thing to do to give people the opportunity to have a formal, recognised qualification at Level 2.

00:48:02.331 --> 00:48:08.833
We got 5,500 people through a Level 2 diploma, which I'm very, very proud of.

00:48:09.019 --> 00:48:14.731
But times changed, changed and then it become more, rather than qualifications, accreditation.

00:48:14.731 --> 00:48:17.400
So we started with the accreditation.

00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:19.945
So your qualification, you provide learning evidence.

00:48:19.945 --> 00:48:28.449
The accreditation, it's about bums on seats and getting people the relevant up-to-date information regarding policy procedure and all that carry on.

00:48:28.449 --> 00:48:41.722
So that was another side to develop and after covid it seemed like it was dying on its feet and I thought right about the time that the positive mindset kicked in.

00:48:41.762 --> 00:48:56.782
I thought I'm going to change that 200 year one, 700 year two, and then I think it were 1380 or something for year three and I thought, yeah, wow, do you know?

00:48:56.782 --> 00:48:58.666
So that that was it.

00:48:58.666 --> 00:49:20.925
I I sort of fell into accredited and regulated learning, but I could see that I, I personally believe what supports recovery calling it recovery, it's education and opportunity, and I felt that these courses will do that and they're going to support people to do it and it become quite well.

00:49:20.925 --> 00:49:45.409
It still is quite popular that accreditation and it looks like for the future that's what we're going to be doing applying accreditation to so many things to support people coming, you know, with lived experience, from service user in a volunteer and then up in a staff and transferring those, I suppose those, life skills that they've got those experiences into qualifications as well, I think.

00:49:45.469 --> 00:49:47.501
Interestingly, you know you talk about failing your exams.

00:49:47.501 --> 00:49:48.847
I'm having this conversation.

00:49:48.847 --> 00:49:59.447
My niece at the moment she's going into do a gcses and I understand the pressure because these are subjects that we all have to do, that we don't necessarily want to do and we're not interested in, but we have to do.

00:49:59.447 --> 00:50:03.382
And then as you get older, you find, hang on, actually there's more choice.

00:50:03.382 --> 00:50:04.784
I want to do this course now.

00:50:04.784 --> 00:50:05.748
I want to do this course now.

00:50:05.748 --> 00:50:17.934
Sometimes the options aren't there for people, but with what this organization does especially, people have been through, uh, do you know the adversities of addiction to to use those experiences into something positive?

00:50:17.934 --> 00:50:22.146
And, hang on, there's the possibility that you can get a job here doing something that you want to do.

00:50:22.146 --> 00:50:34.126
How much more interesting is that to apply that even that addict's mentality, yeah, and that positive mindset, into something that is going to benefit you and not benefit the system.

00:50:34.126 --> 00:50:35.769
Should we say sort of thing?

00:50:36.030 --> 00:50:41.572
and that that's the thing, it's that opportunity and it's that that I for me him.

00:50:41.572 --> 00:50:58.905
If we're calling it recovery, my recovery stage in life, it's I attached my addictive personality to getting that career and moving on in life and being able to really look after my children.

00:50:58.905 --> 00:51:00.987
That was the thing and to enjoy myself.

00:51:00.987 --> 00:51:03.097
I enjoyed the job.

00:51:03.097 --> 00:51:04.974
I still do.

00:51:04.974 --> 00:51:06.302
I absolutely love the job.

00:51:06.503 --> 00:51:08.409
I always say this it don't feel like work some days.

00:51:08.429 --> 00:51:09.420
Does it Some days?

00:51:09.420 --> 00:51:09.981
You think I'm?

00:51:10.063 --> 00:51:16.052
lucky to be here I've had jobs where I have dreaded going into work on a Monday.

00:51:16.052 --> 00:51:18.208
I spend my entire Sunday just miserable.

00:51:18.599 --> 00:51:21.449
A day off, spent miserable because I've got work to do.

00:51:21.449 --> 00:51:24.469
You just don't have that in this sector, do you Very rarely?

00:51:24.469 --> 00:51:33.016
I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that do, but for me personally, I've never had that, and I think it's such a rewarding job and a rewarding sector that we get to work in.

00:51:33.016 --> 00:51:42.646
I've worked in this field 10 years now and I've shared this story before, but I'd only ever really last about two or three months in a job before I'd even get the sack or I'd quit.

00:51:42.646 --> 00:51:48.231
And yet somehow I've done 10 years here, the difference being I'm doing something positive.

00:51:48.313 --> 00:52:03.572
Yeah, that's it key positive, positive mindset, positive attitude and getting people around you that also are pumping positivity, and it just the things that you then do and the the people that you see progress on it a day.

00:52:03.572 --> 00:52:13.730
Someone from domino effects the message me, um just said I've got the job and it's like fucking, come on, have some of that.

00:52:14.521 --> 00:52:15.706
Talk to me about Domino Effect.

00:52:15.706 --> 00:52:16.643
So you've gone from.

00:52:16.643 --> 00:52:26.387
We just ended then on head of accredited learning, but for the last almost a year now, I think it's been, you've been the National Service User Involvement League, which is a big responsibility.

00:52:26.387 --> 00:52:35.414
Interestingly enough, the friend you were talking about earlier you used to be a service user rep and now you are the national services, involvement that's a proper full circle moment.

00:52:35.534 --> 00:52:42.304
I think You're working on multiple projects that are much like.

00:52:42.304 --> 00:52:52.327
This podcast is there to challenge stigma and to, I guess, showcase some of the realities of what life and addiction can be like for people and the positives of overcoming those addictions.

00:52:52.327 --> 00:52:55.461
Let's finish on on these projects that you're working on.

00:52:55.461 --> 00:52:56.847
Talk to me about the domino effect.

00:52:56.847 --> 00:52:59.938
How did that come to be and what are the?00:52:59.938 --> 00:53:01.282


What the next steps for yourself?00:53:01.945 --> 00:53:07.623


so I'll take it back two stages so that you fully understand we.00:53:07.623 --> 00:53:15.409


I approached my supervisor at the time when this positive surge come and I thought, right, I'm having some of this I want to do.00:53:15.409 --> 00:53:18.641


My life's been shit and I've been the cause of that being negative.00:53:18.641 --> 00:53:31.326


So previously, many, many years ago, over a decade ago, I'd worked with a let's call him a colleague, kev, from Inspired Youth.00:53:31.326 --> 00:53:40.972


We'd done the same, we'd done about three or four similar films and events back then.00:53:40.972 --> 00:53:45.891


So when it's come to me thinking right, what can I do?00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:49.750


I saw a problem that we needed to promote volunteering.00:53:49.750 --> 00:53:51.623


They want enough volunteers, I've been told.00:53:51.623 --> 00:53:54.472


So I said we need to do a promotion, we need to do an advert film.00:53:54.472 --> 00:53:57.829


So this is what we do.00:53:57.829 --> 00:54:02.199


We do these groups, we co-produce it with people with lived experience.00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:08.222


So we'll go, we'll speak with the volunteers, we'll get them in a room, we'll part, they'll participate in the film.00:54:08.222 --> 00:54:16.030


Really had a a good time, really enjoyed myself, took myself back to, way back and this is selfish about building myself back up again.00:54:16.030 --> 00:54:19.626


So, working with Kev again.00:54:19.626 --> 00:54:28.280


Hadn't seen him for 10 years, so just this one day I picked the phone up, phoned him all right, kev, and he was like all right, paul Like it.00:54:28.541 --> 00:54:30.286


I've seen him like it like no time had passed.00:54:30.307 --> 00:54:36.219


Yeah so we did the first one, we did the event and I remember I now got emotional at the start of this podcast.00:54:36.219 --> 00:54:37.664


I remember getting emotional.00:54:37.664 --> 00:54:39.148


There I was, stood at the front.00:54:39.148 --> 00:54:41.681


We finished this volunteer advert was your day.00:54:41.681 --> 00:54:55.219


Big round of applause, everyone clapping, and you know when you feel like you're hitting milestones, you're getting places, you you're moving up, confidence-wise, speaking openly, publicly again in front of people.00:54:55.800 --> 00:55:01.793


And off the back of that I was invited to a meeting in East Lancashire.00:55:01.793 --> 00:55:03.663


What is it?00:55:03.663 --> 00:55:07.250


East and North and Central, maybe East Lancashire.00:55:07.250 --> 00:55:09.146


And what an amazing group of people.00:55:09.146 --> 00:55:10.610


The managers up there are.00:55:10.610 --> 00:55:20.891


There's, you know, nicky Armitage, she runs it up there, but there's then Danielle Hickey and there's Lisa Curtis, them kind of people.00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:23.427


And I sat down and I just told my story.00:55:23.427 --> 00:55:35.034


I just thought I'm just going to be open and honest here, said where I've been said, now we try to do these different things and we've got these different opportunities by interlinking with kev.00:55:35.034 --> 00:55:36.139


It inspired youth.00:55:36.139 --> 00:55:41.467


If there's any money we'd be more than happy to do some form of um project.00:55:41.467 --> 00:55:45.855


Showed kev's um masterpiece.00:55:45.855 --> 00:55:47.503


It's a great piece of work that he'd done.00:55:47.503 --> 00:55:51.905


Donkeys years ago called music for care and showed them that.00:55:51.905 --> 00:55:54.050


And there were a few tearful moments.00:55:54.050 --> 00:55:54.972


Do you know the I got?00:55:54.972 --> 00:55:57.023


There were emotion in the room.00:55:57.023 --> 00:56:01.481


I felt emotional myself and it were like, right, we'd like to do something.00:56:01.481 --> 00:56:06.019


When I look into this and what we want is to do something regarding alcohol awareness.00:56:06.019 --> 00:56:07.061


We don't.00:56:07.061 --> 00:56:10.349


We're not getting enough people through the door regarding alcoholism.00:56:10.349 --> 00:56:11.432


Do something.00:56:11.432 --> 00:56:15.164


Amazing experience, what a time we had.00:56:15.164 --> 00:56:24.153


We did it in plain sight and premiered it at a cinema in Preston.00:56:24.153 --> 00:56:40.565


Amazing event and I felt it again that big step up and really enjoying working with the people in the groups, great groups of people.00:56:40.565 --> 00:56:41.710


We lived experience.00:56:41.710 --> 00:56:47.909


I'm feeling part and parcel of it all again and feeling like we're making a difference.00:56:47.909 --> 00:56:53.804


We are doing things that are going to inspire people into this positive change.00:56:55.527 --> 00:57:03.447


Off the back of that, I got approached again from jackie in manchester um, straight away, we want, we want to do something.00:57:03.447 --> 00:57:08.782


Um, and we come up with a pitch of exactly what it would be that we'd do.00:57:08.782 --> 00:57:17.271


We were entered into a journey and we got to know a group of people seven people in the domino effect.00:57:17.271 --> 00:57:34.384


And don't get me wrong, I've met some amazing people in Hidden, in Plain Sight, seen them move into employment, zushia being one of the key people and kev jackson that does the drone footage.00:57:34.384 --> 00:57:42.228


Two amazing people that stand out from mid and in plain sight come along and supported us to do the domino effect, based on their experience of the previous projects.00:57:42.228 --> 00:58:07.344


But the domino crew, we I met such an amazing group of people kat sarah, rob, who's just he's gaining employment dave marching, harriet what an amazing, amazing group of people to to get the privilege of not just knowing but working with two.00:58:07.583 --> 00:58:16.963


I had so much fun when we started to actually create the film and I became part and parcel of the development of the film and the ideas.00:58:16.963 --> 00:58:19.891


Some of the ideas were mine and Kev's combined.00:58:19.891 --> 00:58:41.869


We'd do a lot of work in the car driving back from Manchester on M62, sussing out what had happened in the actual session and then how we can start to change it, create the song with liam critical powers, the lyricist, and yeah, I absolutely loved it and I know the group did and the premiere event.00:58:41.869 --> 00:58:43.195


You know where I've been talking.00:58:43.195 --> 00:58:48.867


We've mentioned my career and how long I've been in this profession and where I've been and what I've done and that kind of stuff.00:58:49.530 --> 00:59:01.813


That day for me, that experience as well, and working with them particular seven people stands out for me as being the best part of my career from day dot.00:59:01.813 --> 00:59:04.967


Yeah, without a shadow of a doubt.00:59:04.967 --> 00:59:12.891


I remember we had to do a promotion event and again I was pushing myself, thinking I need to.00:59:12.891 --> 00:59:19.791


One of my big fears is public speaking, so I need to challenge that now and I need to try and achieve more.00:59:19.791 --> 00:59:21.543


And I stood up and I did.00:59:21.543 --> 00:59:51.510


Like you know, people stand up and say, hiya, my name's Paul, I'm an addict kind of thing, so I didn't say it like that, but I spoke of my lived experience and said about being cleaned, stopped using heroin 20 years ago that some of them stood up and applauded and I got this big and I felt this rush come right up my body like wow, and I felt I had to say just give me a minute.00:59:51.670 --> 00:59:56.992


You're just going to have to give me a minute and I felt I had to say just give me a minute.00:59:56.992 --> 01:00:00.393


You're just going to have to give me a minute and yeah, from that point on working with the Seven, it was out of this world.01:00:00.393 --> 01:00:03.213


The music video I think.01:00:03.213 --> 01:00:10.614


If you know to any listeners, please go on to just search it.01:00:10.614 --> 01:00:14.056


The domino effect inspired youth on Google.01:00:14.275 --> 01:00:16.157


It's a very emotive piece.01:00:16.157 --> 01:00:19.518


I'm quite jaded.01:00:19.518 --> 01:00:24.619


I don't often get tearful, although I did recently at the end of Coco, the Disney film.01:00:25.802 --> 01:00:34.460


It doesn't always happen but when I watched the domino effect I got a similar feeling, I felt the tear sort of in the eyes, you know, and it's just a really powerful piece.01:00:34.460 --> 01:00:50.289


And we say, you know, we often say nobody goes into addiction alone, and we know about these things that that are highlighted in the domino effects, but I don't think we give them as much attention as we should and in that piece I think it can't be ignored.01:00:50.289 --> 01:01:04.007


It can't be ignored that the effect that it has on children and older children who are then having to look after their siblings, and all this because of substance use, and just what a powerful piece for something.01:01:04.007 --> 01:01:04.289


That is.01:01:04.289 --> 01:01:05.981


Do you know what?01:01:05.981 --> 01:01:09.768


10 minutes long, just under the music video is 10 minutes long.01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:12.074


The documentary is about 25, isn't it?01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:15.570


The documentary is about 25, half an it About 25, half an hour somewhere between.01:01:15.692 --> 01:01:16.313


But that would have.01:01:16.313 --> 01:01:25.264


That would a key thing for me, hidden in plain sight at the time because of the alcohol awareness and where I've been recently with alcohol, but hidden in plain sight.01:01:25.264 --> 01:01:40.034


And you know, reflecting back on the start of this podcast and you know I get quite emotional when I speak about family and my grandparents and stuff but doing a project about affected others, I just felt, do you know what?01:01:40.034 --> 01:01:45.969


It don't get me wrong it were all about the inspiration of inspiring people into recovery too.01:01:45.969 --> 01:01:57.043


But addressing that affected others element and inviting family members into the actual filming of the documentary to give their view and opinion and it did.01:01:57.043 --> 01:02:12.264


It made me look back and just think, wow, I wish there'd have been the services available to my grandparents back then so they had somewhere to turn because they didn't, and that that's the key thing as well.01:02:12.987 --> 01:02:15.753


Did your grandparents ever see you achieve sobriety?01:02:16.159 --> 01:02:25.648


Well, this is the thing my granddad was still about just after my arm injury, the fasciotomy, the injection into the artery.01:02:25.648 --> 01:02:33.976


It was just about not long after, so he saw a bit, but in did he get to?01:02:33.976 --> 01:02:42.567


No, I felt the guilt and everything and the fact that I'd left it too late that's what gets you that's what gets me.01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:43.965


I just wanted him to be proud.01:02:43.965 --> 01:02:51.875


My grandma who basically my grandma always had my back.01:02:51.875 --> 01:03:00.730


Honestly, my grandad did, but my grandma was always there, like a Jack Russell fighting in the corner, and it didn't matter if I'd done wrong or right.01:03:00.730 --> 01:03:03.168


What she'd do then is she'd call me at home and go.01:03:03.168 --> 01:03:04.820


You, you little bugger.01:03:04.900 --> 01:03:05.983


Stick up for you in public.01:03:05.983 --> 01:03:07.949


But the second, he's behind closed doors you?01:03:08.811 --> 01:03:10.585


Yeah, my grandma saw it.01:03:10.585 --> 01:03:13.889


My grandma saw the kids start to get brought up.01:03:13.889 --> 01:03:15.967


She saw me buy a home.01:03:15.967 --> 01:03:22.550


I spent a lot of time with her but then she died many years before she actually died.01:03:22.550 --> 01:03:37.186


She got dementia just before I think it was a couple of years before COVID, and I'd go to see her and some days she didn't have a clue, but I'd go see her, I'd go see her anyway.01:03:37.186 --> 01:03:51.030


But before she passed bizarre thing I actually turned up at the nursing home this day, went in, sat down and she looked at me and went all right, love.01:03:51.030 --> 01:03:55.791


And I'm thinking, fuck this is odd.01:03:57.329 --> 01:03:57.793


She knew I was.01:03:57.793 --> 01:03:59.507


She spoke to me.01:03:59.507 --> 01:04:01.847


Covid kicked in.01:04:01.847 --> 01:04:06.846


Month after, maybe a couple of weeks after, I never got that privilege again.01:04:06.846 --> 01:04:11.815


Month went by, covid kicked in, couldn't see her.01:04:11.815 --> 01:04:21.184


Covid killed her and, if I'm honest, it was a relief for me at that point to see her where she was.01:04:21.184 --> 01:04:24.603


I remember because I lived with them and spent so much time with them both.01:04:24.603 --> 01:04:27.467


They said to me don't ever let us get in that state.01:04:27.467 --> 01:04:29.867


Will you put a bullet through his head?01:04:29.867 --> 01:04:30.108


Will?01:04:30.148 --> 01:04:30.228


you.01:04:30.228 --> 01:04:36.168


I thought it was that simple for us as family members to do for our loved ones when things like that happen.01:04:38.364 --> 01:04:42.306


Yeah, I felt okay, my grandma saw it.01:04:42.306 --> 01:04:47.585


I know if there is a God and if my granddad is there in spirit and he's watching, I think he'll be proud.01:04:47.585 --> 01:04:50.244


Yeah, absolutely, I can't see how you wouldn't be.01:04:50.244 --> 01:04:54.047


No, no, the key thing, you bring them kids up.01:04:54.047 --> 01:04:55.565


Paul, I think I've done that.01:04:56.806 --> 01:04:59.099


Paul, thank you so much for being on the episode.01:04:59.099 --> 01:05:13.121


I like to end all my podcasts with a series of 10 questions unrelated to what we've spoken about so far quick fire questions to end on what I like to think is a bit more of a positive note, and my first question is what is your favourite word, word?01:05:13.121 --> 01:05:14.141


What I like to think is a bit more of a positive note, and my first question is what is your favourite word?01:05:18.494 --> 01:05:18.755


Word.01:05:18.755 --> 01:05:19.820


Well, that's a.01:05:19.820 --> 01:05:20.202


I'm bizarre.01:05:20.202 --> 01:05:21.106


Is that a bogey?01:05:21.106 --> 01:05:23.766


A bogey, but do you know why that's come up?01:05:23.766 --> 01:05:30.528


I just remembered that from being a kid listening to my uncle get asked it and he'd say bogey that's my favourite word.01:05:31.681 --> 01:05:32.588


Least favourite word Ooh Ooh.01:05:32.588 --> 01:05:33.315


Bogey, that's my favourite word.01:05:33.315 --> 01:05:34.945


Least favourite word ooh ooh.01:05:36.684 --> 01:05:54.108


I think smackhead, smackhead the stigma behind it, the stigma behind that smackhead addict for me is positive, but smackhead people say that uneducated about actually what impact it can have tell me something that excites you.01:05:54.108 --> 01:06:00.268


Bizarrely work, but falconry Love it.01:06:00.268 --> 01:06:04.284


Falconry Holodict is so much.01:06:04.284 --> 01:06:06.405


You've asked a question there.01:06:06.405 --> 01:06:07.548


I can just go on, go on.01:06:07.960 --> 01:06:09.206


Tell me something that doesn't excite you.01:06:16.260 --> 01:06:17.744


That's a difficult one as well.01:06:17.744 --> 01:06:19.230


What doesn't excite me?01:06:19.230 --> 01:06:21.967


Do you know what I might have to pass on that?01:06:22.106 --> 01:06:22.208


one.01:06:22.208 --> 01:06:23.706


What sound or noise do you love?01:06:26.443 --> 01:06:29.811


These are bizarre questions what noise do I love?01:06:29.811 --> 01:06:31.125


What noise do I love?01:06:31.125 --> 01:06:34.387


Ooh, I need to be careful.01:06:34.387 --> 01:06:40.246


There's all kinds of shit going through my brain now I'm struggling to answer that.01:06:40.246 --> 01:06:41.690


The crowd Do you know what?01:06:41.690 --> 01:06:44.682


The crowd that day?01:06:44.682 --> 01:06:45.847


The domino effect.01:06:45.867 --> 01:06:48.206


The crowd An audience applauding yeah.01:06:48.206 --> 01:06:49.822


What sound or noise do you hate?01:06:53.672 --> 01:06:55.025


Do you know what I can't stand?01:06:55.025 --> 01:06:58.068


It absolutely winds me up.01:06:58.068 --> 01:07:09.284


Do you know, when you're watching telly and you can hear that background noise of another telly or a phone or a radio or something Can't concentrate, that drives me up the wall.01:07:09.885 --> 01:07:10.668


Favourite swear word.01:07:12.920 --> 01:07:14.045


I don't know if I should say it.01:07:14.045 --> 01:07:15.148


Say it, say it.01:07:15.148 --> 01:07:17.688


It's got two meanings, hasn't it?01:07:17.688 --> 01:07:19.827


You're either a victim or you're horrible.01:07:19.827 --> 01:07:22.027


It can be used in different ways.01:07:22.619 --> 01:07:27.925


What profession over the neuron would you like to attempt To be a falconer?01:07:27.925 --> 01:07:29.947


What profession would you not like to do?01:07:31.001 --> 01:07:31.664


Be a bin man.01:07:32.099 --> 01:07:33.449


And lastly, if heaven exists, what would you not like?01:07:33.396 --> 01:07:34.313


to do Be a bin man and lastly, if heaven exists.01:07:34.380 --> 01:07:37.146


what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?01:07:37.927 --> 01:07:45.346


Ooh, your grandma and grandad are waiting for you.01:07:45.567 --> 01:07:46.048


That's nice.01:07:46.449 --> 01:07:46.630


Yeah.01:07:46.820 --> 01:07:50.862


And you just don't want to be a bin man, because you don't want to end up being another stumpy do you Stumpy, no Brilliant.01:07:50.862 --> 01:07:51.583


Cheers, paul.01:07:51.583 --> 01:07:53.126


Thank you very much, you're welcome.01:07:53.166 --> 01:07:53.606


Thank you.01:07:54.007 --> 01:07:59.072


And if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People podcast, we'd love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful.01:07:59.072 --> 01:08:01.815


Don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode.01:08:01.815 --> 01:08:09.164


Leaving a review will help us reach more people and continue challenging stigma around addiction and recovery For additional resources, insights and updates.