#64 - Chris De Banks: Not Saints, Music & Recovery, 90s Drug Culture, Alcohol Dependency, The Creativity Myth, The Stigma of Addiction & Building a Sober Music Community

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This is a Renew original recording.

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Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a British podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma.

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My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or, as I like to say, your facilitator.

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Today's guest is Chris De Banks, the founder of NotSaints, the UK's only not-for-profit record label dedicated to supporting those seeking a life free from drug and alcohol addiction.

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But NotSaints is more than just a music organisation.

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It represents a compassionate approach to supporting individuals navigating recovery from substance misuse.

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Born from personal experience with addiction, not Saints understands the complex challenges of rebuilding a life and finding connection.

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Since 2019, it has created a unique space where music and recovery intersect, offering creative opportunities that go beyond traditional support models.

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It provides a platform for artists in recovery to rediscover their potential, challenge stigma and build a future where music is a tool for healing rather than harm.

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I begin our conversation by taking it back to the influences that shaped Chris's relationship with drugs and alcohol and how the music scene of the 90s played a role in his journey into addiction.

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I grew up in the 90s you know the early 90s and it was kind of, you know, as a young, impressionable teenager kind of drinking.

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Drugs were everywhere.

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You know you had the Gallagher's on the paper in the papers you know they're notorious cocaine problems and TFI Friday on a Friday night, and you know you turn on the TV and there's Chris Evans with a pint in front of him and Sean Ryder, you know, and stuff like that.

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So it was just it was kind of as a teenager growing up in that kind of in that world essentially, or seeing all that around you, you know it was kind of an inevitable thing, I think, really to kind of start sort of trying out those different things, so drinking, alcohol and drugs and also at the same time getting into music and starting to play in bands and, you know, picking up a guitar for the very first time and stuff.

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And you know picking up a guitar for the very first time and stuff.

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So I think that really that kind of 90s melting pot of music and culture and everything was the real kind of birth point for my later problems with alcohol and drugs and you know.

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So I started drinking and started smoking a bit of weed, as most people do in their kind of, you know, early to mid-teens.

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And then things progressed as I got older, you know.

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So then the party drugs came in, so ecstasy and speed and kind of fast forward into my 20s.

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Then it's coke and things got harder and the drinking got harder as well.

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And being in music and working in music and playing in bands, it was kind of, you know, it was a really great place to kind of hide an emerging drug or an alcohol problem, because you know everybody around you is partying all the time.

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You know you do a gig, gig, everybody's drinking, everybody's drinking.

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Afterwards you're going back to house parties, you go off on tour.

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Everybody's drinking to sleep or smoking weed and it's kind of, you know.

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So it just became a kind of a part of the part of the lifestyle really.

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Um, you know, and then as I kind of came towards the end of my 20s, the cracks really started to show.

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You know, I was getting in trouble with the police, I'd kind of, I was falling out with friends, I was getting into financial difficulties, I was, I was losing jobs and uh, and I thought, you know, I need to do something with my life, I need to make a radical decision.

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So I I decided to go to university and thought if I give up drugs are the problem.

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If I give up drugs, everything will be fine.

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I can still drink.

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I can just go and be a student for three years and turn my life around.

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So I went and studied music business.

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That's when I said the irony there of going to university to sort those things out.

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There's so many people that could be where it starts, or that's the time where they do it.

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This is it.

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I love the irony of that there.

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I know I'm sure a lot of your listeners can relate to that that kind of like oh this is the problem, so I'll do something equally insane to fix it.

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Do you know what I mean?

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But I went to university, studied music business, thought that I was going to be okay, but obviously once I put down the drugs, the drink really started to take hold and what was kind of an evenings and weekends thing really started becoming like a daily battle and somehow managed to get through my degree.

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What was a kind of an evenings and weekends thing really started becoming a day, like a daily, a daily battle, um, and somehow managed to get through my degree.

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The drugs did come back in because I found that then I was needing to use drugs to kind of manage my drinking a little bit more and it was see, if I was taking you know, taking something like MDMA, then I can drink as much.

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And so it became this kind of constant self medication battle, um, of self-medication battle, of trying to just eat my way through this, this, this degree, and and basically, when I finished that um had all these kind of pie in the sky ideas about going off and working in london and having an expense account and getting a flash car and working for sony and and all this and of course, none of it came to fruition and and gradually, you know my addiction in that final kind of well, four, four, five years after my degree really just stripped everything away you know, to the point where I was, you know, penniless, destitute, unemployed, living in one room above a pub, ironically, because it was the only place I could find that would let me live there, you know.

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And then came the crashing rock bottom.

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But, you know, with that rock bottom became the kind of the catalyst, then, for this next phase of my life, which was, you know, to, to, to take everything I'd learned in music and everything I've done in the music industry and actually turn it all almost 360 and go right, hang on, let's use, use this as a power for good now, rather than a kind of uh, a self-aggrandizing journey of trying to be something, you know, being the next simon cowell.

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Not, I ever wanted to be simon cowell, someone like someone can relate.

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Yeah, yeah, it's always a frame of reference.

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I think um.

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Do you know the?

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The correlation between drugs, uh, music, creativity thinking of artists like eric clapton, for instance they're so uh deeply intertwined.

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How did you find um using substances with your creativity?

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Did it help your creativity?

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Was it a hindrance to it?

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how did those two things play off each other I think there's a huge myth.

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I think this is the thing amongst creatives.

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I think I think it's, uh, it's, it's the myth.

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It's like if I use drinking drugs I'll be more creative.

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Therefore, I will, I will make you know, my magnum opus will will come when I'm off my head and I'm suddenly I'm, you know, I'm uplifted to a spiritual plane where I'll write this incredible piece of music that everybody will fall in love with.

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They'll think I'm a genius and that'll be the rest of my life.

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You know, and I do a lot of work with music colleges and and you hear it all the time it's like, oh, but I need to be tortured, I need to be this, I need to be.

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You know it's like no.

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Try writing as your authentic self.

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Write from your own experiences.

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You know the best way to experience anything is with a clear head and a clear mind.

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You know, because then your emotions are pure, your understanding of a situation is pure.

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You know you're experiencing it in a non-substance affected way and then you can write from it with authenticity.

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Non-substance affected way, and then you can write from it with authenticity.

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So this, this kind of misnomer about you know being the tortured, art is like.

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You know, everyone's like oh, but you know, jimmy hendrix took loads of drugs and he was the best guitarist in the world.

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It's like, yes, and he died you know kirk bain committed suicide because he took too many drugs you

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know where would those artists be today if they hadn't been on drugs.

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You know, if they had, if they had, you know, just done what eric clapton did, which is get sober, you know, and go on and have a long and illustrious career.

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You know, making incredible music and you know having a long and beautiful life.

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And it's, it's that thing, isn't it?

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And it's a, it's a huge myth that I kind of bang a very small drum, big drum.

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I was gonna say try and bag a big drum, but not a lot of people listen.

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But it's, it's, you know, it's trying to just dispel those myths and you know I've I've shared it a lot in music colleges.

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I think it's actually in print as well.

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I did it for a book for music australia.

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I did a bit about dispelling that myth and it's like you know I think anybody that that challenges what I'm saying.

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It's like I would just say to them you know, take six months off, take six months off drinking and using drugs and go and be and and just work out you know who you are.

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As a musician, again, you know, try meditation as a form of kind of channeling your creativity and then, if that works.

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You know, great you know, but I guarantee you I'm right.

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Like, just just go and try it.

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You know what have you got to lose?

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The drink and drugs will still be there, your guitar will still be there, your notebook will still be there, your paintbrushes will still be there.

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Just go and try it for six months.

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If it doesn't work, go back yeah, no, wonderfully, wonderfully put, to be fair.

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I think another thing that you mentioned then was about the, those influences you mentioned, the gallaghers and stuff.

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Um, I guess those cultural influences, well, like, what's your opinion on on, obviously, how it affected you, but how it still continues to affect young and impressionable people now with the way that, uh, drugs and alcohol is glamorised in the media and within music?

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I think it's a really interesting thing because there's kind of several different strands to this.

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I mean, there was a thing that came out on social media a few weeks ago and I think it was from an alcohol study.

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It basically said that young people are drinking less than any of the previous generations.

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But we know in services and things like that and from conversations is that the fact is that the drug use is higher than it's ever been amongst young people and it's ridiculous amongst young people.

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The current ketamine epidemic is.

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Is is absolutely astronomical.

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So you know, on the one hand you've got young people who are going yeah, I don't drink, it's like yeah, but you're banging loads of horse tranquilizer up your nose every Friday night and your bladder's failing.

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You know.

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So it's a kind of a very strange thing.

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So yeah, I think the sort of the cultural references I think have shifted.

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I mean, obviously, when I was growing up it was still sort of music magazines like NME and Melody Maker and you know the chart show on a saturday morning and tfi friday and stuff like that and it was it was all still very much mainstream media, whereas I think with with social media and kind of how that's taken off and things like tiktok and and kind of how artists can present themselves, uh, and how conversations, culturally conversations can happen without um necessarily mass media behind it.

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Yeah, I think it's created lots of different pocket cultures you know, and like we say you know things like ketamine that probably no one was really interested in.

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You know back in the early 90s whether it was even a thing then?

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I guess it must have been.

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But you know, certainly I never came across it because you were then kind of like going, oh, my heroes are doing this, so I'll go and do that, rather than social media kind of feeding into this cultural thing, these subcultures.

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So yeah, but I think it's still.

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I mean it's still very poignant.

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I mean alcohol companies are still targeting, you know, women predominantly through their campaigns at the moment.

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I mean the.

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Prosecco culture is, you know, mums, and Proseccos, you know, mum, happy hours from three o'clock in your local pub until five o'clock, you know, just after you pick the kids up even the coloring's, like the pink gins and stuff like that.

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Absolutely it couldn't be any more.

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It makes it sound like it'd be much more, uh, appealing as well by giving it a nice, a nice feminine color.

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This is it yeah and it's just um, yeah.

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So I think you know, I think culturally, yeah, it's still, it's still, there's still some issues there and there's still a lot going on, you know.

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But definitely the kind of current focus on, yeah, school-run mums and bottles of Prosecco is quite a shocking thing really when you actually boil it down.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah, I'm just thinking about you know, for you there was cultural influences.

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Now I've spoken to many people on this podcast that often talk about their upbringing, talk about their relationships with their parents, talking about childhood trauma as often the gateway into drug addiction and substance misuse, and I think that's always an interesting conversation when people mention cannabis being a gateway drug.

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You mentioned cannabis use yourself, but actually saying there is no gateway drug.

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The gateway is often trauma.

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I'm not saying that's your story by any means, but thinking about when substances was introduced to you and the age you was, what was the impact that that had on, I guess, your family?

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What did they think to it?

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Was they aware of it?

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Was there any self-blaming from themselves as well, when you'd turned into the person that you was, that you turned into for substance use?

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yeah, I mean that's a really interesting question because I don't know, it was never really spoken about and I think that's the thing is.

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Um, yeah, just coming back to your earlier point around around, kind of you know the upbringing and stuff like that, I mean I do.

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I have talked in previous interviews about the fact that you know, my dad worked in a community center bar and my granddad was a builder.

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Whenever we went and saw him, you know it was always in the pub, but you know that was it was the 80s, then that was of a time.

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So for it, for me, you know I was born in 1980, so growing up you know, 1985, 1986, going to see your granddad in in a pub and getting a you know coke and a bag of crisps in the beer garden and go and play while dad has a beer with granddad and stuff.

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That that was just, that was just of that time.

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So you can't really, I don't really pinpoint that as a kind of uh, you know, I was surrounded by it, so therefore I was, it was inevitable, it was going to happen because that was just a period of time in in society.

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So you know, I think it's, um, it may contributed, it may have given me my young, impressionable brain a little glamorization of like, oh, grown-ups spend all their time in the pub.

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Maybe that's what I should be doing when, I grow up.

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But yeah, maybe, maybe not, who knows?

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But you know, for me, I mean, I think it's that kind of cultural wraparound You're a product as much of your environment, but wider culture and society as well.

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I think that's one of the things that is very prevalent in these conversations that we do have is that product of the environment and, yes, sometimes people are introduced to those environments at a much earlier age and are maybe subjected to some form of childhood trauma.

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But I I've often talked about my daughter on this podcast and how I'm so conscious.

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But I have to get this right and it doesn't matter how much reading around parenting that I do.

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There is that element of once she uh, starts to make friends, starts to, you know, go to school, and starts to have pop culture influences and and friend influences, she'll become the product of a different environment, which is something that I can't control.

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Yeah, and I guess that's kind of a similar situation to yourself.

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You know, it wouldn't have mattered what your parents did or what environments they kept you from.

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Once you was in that circle of friends and had that pop culture influence, that media influence and those interests in music and and that environment.

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That is what's going to influence what comes after that, absolutely.

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So I've actually got a little boy myself and you know, god, I love him so much.

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But you know, I know what boys are like.

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I've been a little boy at one point and I've known how.

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You know you will just rebel against anything.

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You know, if someone tells you to rebel against rebelling, you'll rebel.

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You know, and it's that thing.

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And I was in a meeting the other day and someone said to me oh, you know, aren't you worried that?

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You know, given that he's, you know that you're an alcoholic and a drug addict and you know that he might go down that route.

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And I said but who better to carry him through that journey than his dad, who's been through that himself?

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I said my biggest fear is that he goes through something that I've got no experience of yeah because then how do I help?

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then I have to turn to books and kind of like and professionals and then go help me.

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I need to know what to do here.

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But drinking drugs, fuck me.

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I've got 20 years experience of that stuff.

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I can.

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I can coach him on that all day long.

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You know I what I mean.

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That's an interesting point, then, because there's something that we've talked about before.

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It's the idea of alcoholism being a disease, it being hereditary, something that people inherit from their parents.

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Is that a concern for you?

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That addiction gene is in him.

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If that is a thing.

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If that is a thing, do you?

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know what I mean.

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I don't know what your opinion is on all of that stuff some people seem to think, oh, because my dad was an alcoholic.

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See, for me it goes back to the environment.

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I don't necessarily believe that just because your parents were, you know, alcohol dependent, drug dependent, that you are going to become alcohol or drug dependent yourself.

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I think it's that environment in which you grow up in, which is what we've just been talking about now.

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People can argue that completely.

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Yeah, that's absolutely fine, and for me it's all about learning.

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I'm here to listen to those environments.

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You know my opinion could be changed, so I guess, going back to it, what is your opinion on that then?

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I mean, yeah, I suppose the genetic argument is always there.

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I don't know, I think it's.

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It's such a variety of things.

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I think that's the thing.

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I think, yes, if you're from a family of of addicts, then then you know, your predisposition is is probably there, but that's again, it's a, it's a conditioning thing.

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It's more like, if you're so, my son, I gave up drinking, I got sober, I came into recovery, I went through treatment.

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I did all of that before he was born and you know he's now four years old.

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He's never seen me with a drink in my hand.

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He's never seen me use a drug.

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I gave up smoking a month ago, you know, after a love affair of 30 years with cigarettes I gave up.

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But you know, so he, you know, hopefully he won't ever.

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Would that mean?

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that he is going to drink and use drugs.

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I don't know necessarily.

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So yeah, maybe if there is a genetic argument that he might be predisposed to that.

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But you know, I think there are so many different elements that create the perfect storm for an addict.

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And I think it is.

00:16:39.059 --> 00:16:43.596
It's you know, it's your upbringing, it's your environment, it's culture, it's everything around you.

00:16:43.596 --> 00:16:45.999
It's even down to things like financial privilege.

00:16:46.058 --> 00:16:47.080
Like you, down to things like financial privilege.

00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:53.985
Like you know, if you come from a deprived area and there's nothing to do and you haven't got the money to do anything, and someone offers you a bag, you're going to go with that because it's something to do.

00:16:54.145 --> 00:17:04.173
You know, I mean, rather than sort of you know, if you're from a wealthy family and you're brought up well and you can go to the cinema with your mates whenever you want, or whatever they're just it creates different opportunities.

00:17:04.173 --> 00:17:08.338
So therefore, you know the the predilection to kind of go down the drink and drugs route.

00:17:08.338 --> 00:17:14.045
Even if you have got that gene, you may not because you've got other avenues, and that's what I'm saying.

00:17:14.065 --> 00:17:15.126
That would be my argument.

00:17:15.126 --> 00:17:25.750
Just the idea that because a parent is alcohol dependent, drug dependent, that the child is going to experience that, like that, is the only factor, I think it's complete bollocks.

00:17:25.750 --> 00:17:27.195
I think it is exactly as you've said.

00:17:27.195 --> 00:17:37.019
It's all those other things that surround it, of course, like you said, it can contribute to that, but I think there's so much more to look into than just dad's an alcoholic, mum's an alcoholic.

00:17:37.019 --> 00:17:37.981
I'm going to be an alcoholic.

00:17:37.981 --> 00:17:38.423
Well, this is it.

00:17:38.442 --> 00:17:41.017
Yeah, I mean, it comes back to my own experience again.

00:17:41.017 --> 00:17:51.571
So my mum's not an alcoholic, my dad's not an alcoholic.

00:17:51.571 --> 00:17:52.233
Neither of them are alcoholic.

00:17:52.233 --> 00:17:55.766
Uh, you know, and, and I went down that, path for whatever reason for whatever, whatever created that perfect storm for me to kind of go.

00:17:55.766 --> 00:18:00.116
I'm gonna embrace this with all my being and kind of you know, and I'm gonna walk this journey.

00:18:00.597 --> 00:18:04.093
You know, however, that transpired um yeah, but uh yeah.

00:18:04.093 --> 00:18:08.733
I think that the kind of argument for it being just a genetic thing I think is is complete bullshit would.

00:18:09.476 --> 00:18:12.659
Would you, would you share your, would you share your story with your son when he's older?

00:18:12.659 --> 00:18:13.040
Do you think?

00:18:13.221 --> 00:18:14.910
Yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah, Cause.

00:18:14.930 --> 00:18:19.582
I think sometimes some people are so inclined to keep a lot because of the shame, because of the stigma.

00:18:19.582 --> 00:18:22.112
Keep a lot of that stuff to themselves if they could.

00:18:22.112 --> 00:18:26.876
But I think there's learning in to share exactly what we're doing now.

00:18:26.876 --> 00:18:28.518
Yeah, absolutely, by sharing those stories.

00:18:28.538 --> 00:18:30.760
Yeah, no, I mean to be honest.

00:18:30.760 --> 00:18:33.743
I have never shied away from telling my story.

00:18:33.743 --> 00:18:35.905
I'm not ashamed of my addiction.

00:18:35.905 --> 00:18:42.982
I know for a lot of people there is a lot of guilt and shame and pride and ego takes a huge kick when you kind of sit there and you go.

00:18:42.982 --> 00:18:47.952
I'm an alcoholic or I have a problematic relationship with alcohol or however you frame it Like.

00:18:47.952 --> 00:18:51.801
I know that there's a lot, of, a lot of guilt and shame to be carried in that.

00:18:51.801 --> 00:19:00.561
But the thing is, is what we can do to to alleviate that guilt and shame is things like this you know, sharing our story, educating, reducing stigma, raising awareness.

00:19:01.042 --> 00:19:12.116
You know, and whether that's with a family member, with my son, whether with a with a wider audience on an award-winning podcast, or, you know, standing in front of a room full of people in a fellowship meeting, you know I can share my story.

00:19:12.116 --> 00:19:18.798
And if it helps people, you know, little bits of that guilt and shame just get chipped away, you know, and that's the thing, isn't it?

00:19:18.798 --> 00:19:24.303
And you know we can turn such crushing negatives into such positives.

00:19:24.303 --> 00:19:25.355
I think is a beautiful thing.

00:19:25.355 --> 00:19:27.653
It's a gift that every addict and alcoholic has.

00:19:27.653 --> 00:19:28.816
You just need to embrace it.

00:19:28.996 --> 00:19:29.517
Absolutely.

00:19:29.517 --> 00:19:32.943
We talked a little bit before the podcast started about war stories.

00:19:32.943 --> 00:19:37.013
You mentioned rock bottom moment.

00:19:37.013 --> 00:19:47.655
Can you share some of the realities of what addiction was like for you, some of the worst moments that you experienced during addiction, not to glamorize it, but just to give the reality of what it is like?

00:19:47.957 --> 00:19:48.597
for an individual.

00:19:48.597 --> 00:19:51.922
Yeah, I was the type of addict of more, always more of everything.

00:19:51.922 --> 00:19:52.522
Like you know.

00:19:52.522 --> 00:19:54.506
If I started drinking, I was drinking to blackout.

00:19:54.506 --> 00:19:59.701
If I was using drugs, I was using drugs until they were either all gone or I was getting some more, or I was literally just dying on the floor.

00:19:59.701 --> 00:20:10.982
You know, I remember one New Year's, basically starting probably sometime just after Christmas and using drugs consistently until the point on New Year's Day where I thought I was going through kidney failure.

00:20:10.982 --> 00:20:17.721
I was literally I could barely move laying on the floor, you know, but I'd have rock bottoms of waking up in police cells.

00:20:17.721 --> 00:20:19.849
God knows how many times I woke up in police cells.

00:20:19.849 --> 00:20:20.952
I actually left.

00:20:20.992 --> 00:20:37.067
I lived in Essex for about eight years and by the time I left there, I think I had about 10 or 11 cautions for various different public disorder offenses and they were like, you know, next time we arrest you, you're going up in front of a magistrate, regardless of what it's for, because you need to be taken out of society.

00:20:37.067 --> 00:20:38.251
I was like, okay, I need to get out of here.

00:20:38.251 --> 00:20:39.836
Um, you know, but I do.

00:20:39.836 --> 00:20:56.515
And then physical things as well, like you know, I'd wake up in the morning with, like my face stuck to a pillow and it'd be like my eyebrow would be just completely an exploded mess of blood and you know no recollection of how I'd done it, you know, and I'd just get up, wash it off, laugh it off and go straight down the pub or go and get a can or whatever.

00:20:56.575 --> 00:21:17.463
And um, I fell down a set of metal fire escapes once and cracked four ribs, like broke four ribs, and woke up next morning was kind of like, oh my god, and you know it was laying in bed all that day, didn't go to hospital, laying in bed all that day, still drinking, just trying to numb the pain of that and uh, you know, but for me and and the weird thing is they, they all those things sound like they should be rock bottoms.

00:21:17.463 --> 00:21:17.890
Do you know?

00:21:17.890 --> 00:21:21.480
I mean breaking four ribs, being, you know, needing hospital treatment and not going.

00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:23.096
You know you think you lay there and go.

00:21:23.096 --> 00:21:25.047
Probably that was pretty stupid.

00:21:25.106 --> 00:21:35.736
Probably should have done something about that or you know, getting arrested however many times and being like probably to do something here, you know, um, and none of it ever really seemed to to to make any difference.

00:21:35.736 --> 00:21:54.574
Um, the thing that actually really and I said to myself this morning I wasn't going to tell this story, but actually listing off all the, all the really really quite bad stuff, you know, police arrests- and broken bones and smashed up faces and stuff all those things that sound like they should be rock bottoms, when actually the thing that really brought me into recovery was I was.

00:21:54.653 --> 00:22:03.611
I was, as I said earlier, living in one room above a pub, uh, and I had a mate who lived upstairs, um, and he was a chef and he we used to use together and drink together, but he was.

00:22:03.611 --> 00:22:05.413
He's actually in recovery in london now.

00:22:05.413 --> 00:22:11.442
I haven't seen him for ages, but he lent me 50 quid one weekend because I lost a job or something like that.

00:22:11.442 --> 00:22:17.561
But I was about to get paid and he said oh, you know, I'm going to see my mum on Monday, take her out for lunch, so I need the money back.

00:22:17.561 --> 00:22:22.483
I said, yeah, yeah, no problem, mate, no problem, that's fine, you know, I'll give you the 50 quid back on Sunday night.

00:22:22.483 --> 00:22:29.962
Sunday night rolls around and I went up I'm obviously in blackout at this point and I found out all this information later on but I went up to see him.

00:22:29.962 --> 00:22:31.556
I gave him 45 quid.

00:22:31.556 --> 00:22:34.960
He saw me pocket five quid, which I knew was for booze the next day.

00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:41.934
He knew I pocketed it for booze the next day and he challenged me on it and was just like, look, I need the 50 quid I've got to get to London.

00:22:41.934 --> 00:22:47.340
It's going to cost me X and I was like, oh, but I need it for train fare for tomorrow.

00:22:47.340 --> 00:22:49.223
You know, complete bullshit fabrication.

00:22:49.223 --> 00:22:50.444
He challenged me on it.

00:22:50.444 --> 00:22:51.306
A fight ensued.

00:22:51.306 --> 00:22:54.159
Anyway, as I said, I was in blackout, don't really remember it.

00:22:54.250 --> 00:23:04.371
But I woke up the next morning, on the Monday morning, and it was just that impending sense of doom, as I'm sure a lot of your guests talk about, and it's that waking up and going, oh God, something happened.

00:23:04.371 --> 00:23:07.992
And I messaged him and I just sort of said you know what happened last night?

00:23:07.992 --> 00:23:11.334
And I just got three little words back, which is just like you need help.

00:23:11.334 --> 00:23:13.095
And I was like, oh my God.

00:23:13.095 --> 00:23:18.156
And what that felt like was like so Ed was like the last friend I had left in the world.

00:23:18.156 --> 00:23:20.337
You know, it was the one person that I could borrow money off.

00:23:20.337 --> 00:23:22.919
It was the one person that I could go and knock on his door and he'd give.

00:23:23.078 --> 00:23:28.181
I felt in that moment like I just hit.

00:23:28.181 --> 00:23:43.767
I just stooped to below, you know, for the sake of five quid, of jeopardizing a relationship with one person who was still willing to stand by me and it just felt like that was the moment of kind of morally, I'd crossed every single line that I had and that was the bit.

00:23:43.767 --> 00:23:55.993
And so from that moment I phoned up local services and was just like, look, you know how do I refer myself, and so started my recovery journey.

00:23:55.993 --> 00:24:06.996
So all those big crashing, crazy things that you think would be a rock bottom, like jumping off balconies in nightclubs and falling down stairs and things that you know that that should be those catalysts for recovery, and actually it was just a falling out with a mate over five quid see.

00:24:07.036 --> 00:24:10.393
I love that, though, because I think the rock bottom is so subjective, isn't it?

00:24:10.393 --> 00:24:16.634
What is one person's rock bottom isn't for somebody else, and I think that is a perfect example of that is.

00:24:16.634 --> 00:24:22.535
It wasn't getting in trouble with the police, it was just this moral, moral line that you had crossed.

00:24:22.736 --> 00:24:26.053
So I've I've got a mate in brighton and he basically talks about the window.

00:24:26.053 --> 00:24:28.363
So he says you know to to get into.

00:24:28.363 --> 00:24:38.069
If you're an addict and you're in active addiction or you're an alcoholic in the throes of alcoholism, to get into recovery, you have windows and those windows will come along now and again.

00:24:38.069 --> 00:24:54.432
And it might be that you do something so incredibly stupid that you wind up in hospital with two broken legs, or it might be that you just say you call your mum a horrible name and that window will appear in front of you and you've got moments to make that decision about whether you're going to turn your life around or not.

00:24:54.432 --> 00:24:58.611
And he said but the rest of the time those windows are shut and you don't want to find them.

00:24:59.532 --> 00:25:02.882
And so it's about embracing those windows when they come, when they come about.

00:25:02.882 --> 00:25:09.864
And I think that's a really beautiful way of putting it, because it's kind of like, you know, for most addicts and alcoholics we tend to walk through life in with just blinkers on.

00:25:09.864 --> 00:25:10.586
Do you know?

00:25:10.586 --> 00:25:13.352
I mean, we're completely unaware of everything that's going on around us.

00:25:13.352 --> 00:25:17.652
We have nothing in our soul apart from where's the next drink coming from, where's the next drug coming?

00:25:17.692 --> 00:25:19.916
from me, me, me, me, me, me, me all the time.

00:25:19.916 --> 00:25:37.875
And then suddenly you know, whatever the universe will just go, here's a window of opportunity, you know, and it can be a massive crashing rock bottom which everybody around goes wow, that was terrible, you're not surprised you sorted yourself out, or it can just be something so subtle that you just go.

00:25:37.996 --> 00:25:42.594
God, I've really, really fucked up you know, yeah, no, I love that.

00:25:42.594 --> 00:25:50.461
I just want to go back even a bit earlier than that in terms of um drug dependency, because I think that that moment of recovery is important.

00:25:50.461 --> 00:25:56.323
But I often like to delve into the time when you realised you was an addict.

00:25:56.323 --> 00:26:07.740
At what point did you realise that these substances had that physical toll on you, not just the mental toll, but your body had physically become relying on it?

00:26:08.383 --> 00:26:08.844
Yeah.

00:26:08.844 --> 00:26:17.732
So I had an on-off love affair with speed for years, like I discovered it in my late teens, and that was an addiction that I could really.

00:26:17.732 --> 00:26:19.741
I found I could really pick up and put down.

00:26:19.741 --> 00:26:32.000
So I would go through phases of like three or four months where I'd get really really into it, feel the physical dependency, but then I could almost I could almost detox myself off of it and kind of get back to a kind of normal point, a normal balance point.

00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:39.316
So for me, like the first, the first time I really experienced that was in my early twenties and it scared the crap out of me enough that I was just like, right, I'm not touching speed.

00:26:39.316 --> 00:26:39.657
And I didn't.

00:26:39.657 --> 00:26:49.261
I didn't touch it again for about three or four years and then when I moved down to Brighton I got back into it again and then kind of had a couple of years on that and then and then was kind of like, well, I need to stop doing this.

00:26:49.281 --> 00:27:29.718
So I kind of had this, this on off thing with with speed, which you know, this addiction that I could almost turn off and on which I know is not a lot of people's experience, and it's like those people who are kind of like oh yeah, I'm a casual smoker, I can have a cigarette when I have, you know, and then I can just put it down and put it out and it's like that, but yeah, but basically the thing for me, the the one that really really got me, and the one that got me more than anything, um, was alcohol, and it's the one that surprises, because it's so socially acceptable and it's so hyper normalized in our society that it was like, you know, I, when I first started waking up with the shakes, I was like oh, this is a bit weird, like I didn't really understand what it was.

00:27:29.858 --> 00:27:35.900
And and, of course, you know I'm not an alcoholic, you know I'm high functioning, I'm a, I'm a creative, I work in the music industry.

00:27:35.900 --> 00:27:37.454
I can't possibly be me.

00:27:37.454 --> 00:27:53.847
And then it's like, you know, as gradually it's like you, and then, and then after a while it's like you, you're just drinking constantly to kind of fight off the withdrawal and it's like, oh, my god, it's like, yeah, it just suddenly hits you.

00:27:53.867 --> 00:28:04.165
It's like, and, and you know, and I, I would make light of it in ridiculous ways I'd be like, oh, I'm the village, drunk and all this, or I'm you know, or yeah, and it's just, yeah, it's just ridiculous.

00:28:04.165 --> 00:28:22.823
Rationalization of of like I've got a physical addiction, you know, but trying to rationalize it or laugh it off and in the back of your head, constantly thinking, well, it's all right, I'll just deal with it tomorrow, you know, um, and that must have gone on, for, yeah, I suppose probably from my second year of uni I realized that.

00:28:22.823 --> 00:28:25.994
So I'd been 31 and I came into recovery when I was 36.

00:28:25.994 --> 00:28:30.772
So there was about five years of actually knowing that I was alcoholic, in addiction.

00:28:31.453 --> 00:29:04.491
But, yeah, but being too stubborn, stupid, whatever, terrified, scared, probably to be fair, scared of doing anything about it and and and probably fully, and actually fully, believing that this is what's going to kill me but it's okay, because I know what's going to kill me and it's almost like better the devil you know yeah and then actually being like when, when, by the time I was sort of 35 and I just you know pains in my liver and my pancreas and I was like kind of you know carrying a lot of alcohol weight and and just being like, oh my god, this is going to kill me and this is going to be a bloody horrible way to go.

00:29:04.491 --> 00:29:07.654
So I need to you know, I need to start thinking about what the hell we do here.

00:29:07.654 --> 00:29:09.375
And then, of course, the rock bottoms and everything.

00:29:09.435 --> 00:29:11.317
So, yeah, yeah, I just find it interesting.

00:29:11.317 --> 00:29:19.704
I think when people first start taking drugs, there is this almost acceptance with a drug that you could become physically dependent on it.

00:29:19.704 --> 00:29:27.494
But you talked about alcohol in society and the way that it is just everywhere isn't it, the way it's targeted, the way it's marketed.

00:29:29.298 --> 00:29:31.882
So many people talk about how alcohol dependency creeps up on them.

00:29:31.882 --> 00:29:35.856
There isn't just this, you know, because there's no expectancy for that to happen.

00:29:35.856 --> 00:29:37.781
I think that could never happen to me.

00:29:37.781 --> 00:29:46.423
You know the denial element of it, but yeah, the the idea that one day you just wake up and your body is shaking well, this is it I mean physically dependent on that.

00:29:46.503 --> 00:29:49.294
That substance, probably, probably from about the age of 18.

00:29:49.294 --> 00:29:53.977
I I drank daily, I would imagine, but not to excess.

00:29:53.977 --> 00:30:06.517
So it'd be like three or four pints on a weekday after work or whatever, or two or three pints after work and then home and dinner, and then weekends would smash it unless I was doing a gig, and then it would be a bit more of a party during the week.

00:30:06.517 --> 00:30:10.641
But I'd never really considered it to be that, do you?

00:30:10.661 --> 00:30:11.102
know what I mean.

00:30:11.170 --> 00:30:21.615
I was like I wasn't sitting at home drinking bottles of vodka or you know, and things like that, and I was talking to my girlfriend about this the other day actually, and like pound a pint nights and like going out on a.

00:30:21.615 --> 00:30:26.357
Tuesday with a tenner and it was all just perfectly, really normal you know.

00:30:26.357 --> 00:30:29.866
And then these sorts of things don't happen now, but it was well I guess they do.

00:30:29.866 --> 00:30:32.535
They have student nights and stuff still still there, I suppose?

00:30:32.555 --> 00:30:35.305
yeah, but it's obviously just the price of things.

00:30:35.384 --> 00:31:04.239
I remember there was a night pounded and it was one pound drinks and it was just you'd go up with a tenner and you'd be steaming drunk and yeah this is and yeah, I don't know, I think it does, it just sneaks up on you it certainly did with me and I don't know, maybe when I was younger my body could handle it better and so therefore, you know, but as I got older, things slowed down and kind of maybe the addiction kind of really took hold, or maybe I just stopped trying not to be that.

00:31:04.239 --> 00:31:04.820
I don't know.

00:31:04.941 --> 00:31:07.733
Yeah, I'll talk to you more about the music then.

00:31:07.733 --> 00:31:10.478
So what are we doing now in recovery the record label?

00:31:10.498 --> 00:31:17.250
the way that you're helping people yeah, so I, um, so I came, so I, when I got sober, I went back to work in the music industry.

00:31:17.250 --> 00:31:33.921
I worked for a little while as a, as a booking agent, um, worked for a brighton-based agency, um, and then I went and worked as a dj agent as well, um, and really what that kind of showed me for the first time was that was quite how entrenched the music industry and alcohol and drugs are kind of together.

00:31:33.961 --> 00:31:44.621
You know I'd go and work a show and you know the bands would be offered being offered drinks after drinks, after drinks, and you know, and everyone would be outside smoking weed you know, and you'd be like, wow, this is, this is, this is quite nuts.

00:31:45.261 --> 00:31:57.898
Um, you know, and if you're, if you're a musician who doesn't drink or use drugs or you're, you know, a professional in the music industry who has just decided this is not for them, you know, how do you have a meaningful career, how do you have any sort of participation in this?

00:31:57.898 --> 00:32:05.730
You know, even if you're just at home playing with your guitar and you want to do an open mic night, you know they're going to be in your local pub, you know.

00:32:05.730 --> 00:32:08.960
So it's quite a triggering experience for somebody who's just coming into recovery.

00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:25.192
So, you know, and as, as we kind of know through services and through recent things, like kathy sloan from central school is doing amazing work about, you know, creativity and recovery and the carol black report showed that, you know, creativity alongside, alongside structured treatment, you know, gives a better chance of long-term recovery.

00:32:25.252 --> 00:32:35.579
so we kind of, uh, you know if you, if you're new to recovery, and you're trying to embrace this creative element to to what you, to what you have in your you know, if you, if you're new to recovery, and you're trying to embrace this creative element to to what you, to what you have in your toolbox, you know, how do you, how do you have that?

00:32:35.579 --> 00:32:45.013
Um, so, long story short, I uh, back in 2018, decided I, for whatever weird, wacky, insane reason, I was going to start a record label that works.

00:32:45.013 --> 00:33:02.375
And so I met two or three guys down in Brighton who were just what I consider incredible songwriters, and we put out a few singles and fast forward to today and we've kind of done 150 tracks worldwide on Spotify.

00:33:02.395 --> 00:33:05.903
We've done, I think, 12 albums and something like 20 singles.

00:33:05.903 --> 00:33:17.031
We've got a track out today from an act called Hanna Parana called Elixir of Life, and that's beautifully shot video full of ballet and then kind of like heavy guitar parts and stuff like that so so we have the record label.

00:33:17.112 --> 00:33:18.415
we also do a lot of uh.

00:33:18.415 --> 00:33:23.573
So we've just, uh, created a, a workshop series so we can do event management training.

00:33:23.573 --> 00:33:31.653
We also do songwriting, um, and performance training as well, so we can we kind of offer that up to services as well, um, and we do a lot of sober event stuff.

00:33:31.653 --> 00:33:46.622
So last year we were involved in the recovery walk down in London so we curated the main stage at the Rusty Laptop and then we also did Essex Recovery Festival and Bristol Recovery Festival next year and we're kind of, yeah, plugged into a lot.

00:33:46.622 --> 00:33:51.200
You know we work with hundreds of musicians and DJs all over the country.

00:33:51.220 --> 00:34:02.817
So even if people aren't necessarily on the roster, we kind of stay close to them because if there's an opportunity that occurs, that we can give someone a gig or say come and be a part of this amazing thing that we're doing over here, then we can bring them on board as well.

00:34:03.309 --> 00:34:05.458
So obviously we're based up in the North East in Hull.

00:34:05.458 --> 00:34:07.556
You guys have been down there in Brighton.

00:34:07.556 --> 00:34:10.956
How could you work then across the UK?

00:34:11.617 --> 00:34:13.400
So we're well up for travel.

00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:14.202
That's the thing I mean.

00:34:14.202 --> 00:34:14.724
That's why I'm here.

00:34:14.724 --> 00:34:20.280
Do you want to travel 200 miles to do a one-hour podcast?

00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:21.532
Yes, yes, I will do this thing.

00:34:21.532 --> 00:34:22.958
Is there lunch provided?

00:34:23.398 --> 00:34:24.302
Yeah, so yeah.

00:34:24.793 --> 00:34:26.829
No, I mean we're fully prepared to travel.

00:34:26.829 --> 00:34:33.264
I mean, the great thing about myself and the rest of the team is we're all musicians and we've all toured extensively, so we're not afraid to travel.

00:34:33.264 --> 00:34:41.302
So you know, with the workshops is myself and my colleague Mishkin, and we will travel and we will deliver the workshops in whatever city, wherever, wherever in the country.

00:34:41.302 --> 00:34:43.277
You know, we're quite happy to do all that stuff.

00:34:43.277 --> 00:34:47.360
I mean, obviously there's fees attached and we have to work out how we pay for things you know.

00:34:47.501 --> 00:34:50.222
But certainly you know, but certainly you know, we're, we're quite happy to to do that.

00:34:50.222 --> 00:34:57.065
But ultimately, I mean, the ambition for not saints is to grow, you know is to have regional facilitators that can go and deliver workshops.

00:34:57.065 --> 00:35:06.168
And you know, we want, we want to have a uh, we believe so much in what we do, we want to have a presence pretty much wherever we go, so yeah, well, I think it's fantastic.

00:35:06.208 --> 00:35:07.532
You know, it sounds absolutely incredible.

00:35:07.532 --> 00:35:09.097
How are you funded?

00:35:09.137 --> 00:35:12.344
then, um, so historically we've been grant funded.

00:35:12.344 --> 00:35:13.809
Okay, so we're not for profit.

00:35:13.809 --> 00:35:19.659
Yeah, so everything we do we essentially set up like a CIC but we're moving to charitable status hopefully this year.

00:35:19.659 --> 00:35:25.483
And we, yeah, we get money from the Arts Council, national Lottery, like a lot of sort of creative organizations.

00:35:25.483 --> 00:35:31.077
But we are hoping to kind of move into a more sustainable model, hopefully through the workshops.

00:35:31.077 --> 00:35:37.836
So if services like CGL want to buy in the workshops from us, then it kind of helps us to kind of continue the work we do.

00:35:37.856 --> 00:35:50.079
I think it's a great idea though, because I think there's so many people who are creative, who want to be creative as you said it's in the Dame Carol Black report and how that can aid recovery for people in structured treatment.

00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:54.710
But how many organisations out there can deliver what you guys are delivering do?

00:35:54.731 --> 00:35:55.317
you know what I mean.

00:35:55.356 --> 00:36:00.449
It's so niche, which means that you basically could be the go-to for this across the country.

00:36:00.469 --> 00:36:01.458
I mean there's lots of things.

00:36:01.458 --> 00:36:09.632
I mean there are recovery choirs, there's recovery drama groups and things like that, but I'm not aware of anybody that kind of really does bespoke contemporary music training.

00:36:09.632 --> 00:36:10.112
So we can do.

00:36:10.132 --> 00:36:12.760
We can do everything from hip-hop to jazz to folk.

00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:14.003
Um, you know we can.

00:36:14.003 --> 00:36:18.554
We can focus on all of those so we can take a room full of 20 people and go what's your, what's your music of choice?

00:36:18.554 --> 00:36:22.335
Show us what you like and we can teach you how to write music in that style.

00:36:22.335 --> 00:36:24.822
We can teach you how to work with the music that you love.

00:36:24.822 --> 00:36:28.315
Um, you know, michigan's got 25 years as a music teacher.

00:36:28.315 --> 00:36:36.032
I've been in music 20 years, so we've got a combined experience of like nearly 50 years, given the fact we're both in recovery as well so we speak the language of recovery.

00:36:36.213 --> 00:36:36.653
Yeah, you know.

00:36:36.653 --> 00:36:42.603
So we're not just music teachers coming in and teaching people, we're people in recovery who have all this experience that we can share with you.

00:36:42.704 --> 00:37:14.041
So, you know, I think it's uh so I mean my steel yeah I mean my um perception of um perception of using a recording studio is probably from I remember watching Eminem 8 Mile and something happens and the guy says something like this room costs like $1,000 per minute or something like that, I've always thought it'd be like ridiculously priced to work in a studio If we had artists here locally or if there were artists across the country listening to this that haven't ever recorded any of their music professionally.

00:37:14.041 --> 00:37:15.996
Can you help facilitate that in any way?

00:37:16.217 --> 00:37:27.590
Absolutely so a big part of the workshops that we do is in session five we'll actually sit, so we bring a portable studio with us, so we bring a load of rack-mounted equipment and a laptop and we can literally record side-by-side with the person.

00:37:27.590 --> 00:37:42.737
Or we can show you how to use, to use software to actually record, record your own music so we can help you do a demo yourself, but also show you how some some really cool little tricks to just kind of get a get, get the best, rather than sitting there with you with your phone and kind of going oh yeah, I'm gonna record yeah, my phone.

00:37:42.818 --> 00:37:47.074
It's like we can actually show you some, some cool little tricks, even how to use your phone as a microphone in that context.

00:37:47.114 --> 00:37:49.856
Yeah, because it's it's so accessible now, isn't it?

00:37:49.856 --> 00:38:06.849
You know, we talked about the uh, the influences of tiktok in in music, but almost anybody has the access to be a musician now it isn't like it used to back in the day, you know there's all this self-recording equipment, which is incredible, really, because I think creativity and art should be accessible well, this is it.

00:38:06.949 --> 00:38:13.972
Yeah, I mean, that's the great thing about what we do and you know, within within, within, within the workshop we keep talking about this now, but I suppose that's a conversation but you know, within the workshop.

00:38:13.992 --> 00:38:15.974
So Mishkin is an incredible pianist.

00:38:15.974 --> 00:38:42.585
She's been playing for years and grew up playing classical piano and stuff like that, so she would take the very much organic side of things and I was like always aspired to write a song and then we'll just go and use a piece of software, get some beats, get some loops going and we can start building up a hip hop track, building up a Balearic house track, if you want Whatever it is.

00:38:42.585 --> 00:38:50.313
If you sit down with me and go, I want to make this, we can find the samples, we can build the beats, we can build the loops and that's how we build a song.

00:38:50.313 --> 00:38:54.188
We can do songwriting with somebody who's never had any experience, so all the software will do it for you.

00:38:54.188 --> 00:38:57.340
You literally just need someone like me to sit there and go.

00:38:57.340 --> 00:39:00.632
This is how you do, yeah devil's advocate question here but do you think?

00:39:00.652 --> 00:39:06.737
you're almost pigeonholing yourself with just focusing on just recovery, like could you not open this up to to everybody?

00:39:06.737 --> 00:39:08.521
Basically because it sounds incredible.

00:39:08.521 --> 00:39:15.824
What you're doing, or is that really the niche is that what you're doing is is to focus on helping people with lived experience I think definitely there's.

00:39:15.889 --> 00:39:17.333
There's scope for us to open that up.

00:39:17.333 --> 00:39:23.797
Um, I think that we're so well known in our current kind of uh wheelhouse, if you like you know, within recovery circles.

00:39:23.838 --> 00:39:35.099
I think it would be so obvious for us, it's just obvious for us to stay put right now um, if we got to the point where we could kind of open it up across the board and expand in that way, then absolutely, I think we probably could.

00:39:35.099 --> 00:39:41.918
But you know, um, for me I don't like to lose sight of where I came from, exactly I really like that as well.

00:39:41.958 --> 00:39:43.271
You know my people, that's why I asked it.

00:39:43.291 --> 00:40:10.621
Yeah, that's the thing, I think my people, my people are my people yeah, you know and I know, you know, I know there are, there are other charities that do stuff around mental health and there's homeless record labels and there's prison record labels and things like that, Whereas actually I think, for recovery we are still so stigmatized and there's still such lack of awareness and if someone has a mental health problem, everyone feels sorry for them.

00:40:10.809 --> 00:40:17.443
If someone has an addiction problem 90% of people are like Self-inflicted Self-inflicted you brought it on yourself.

00:40:17.931 --> 00:40:22.518
And so it is that thing, and I think for us, we want to work with our people.

00:40:23.501 --> 00:40:23.943
Absolutely.

00:40:23.943 --> 00:40:27.639
Before I finish, is there anything else you'd like to mention?

00:40:27.639 --> 00:40:28.239
Talk about.

00:40:28.621 --> 00:40:31.396
No, I mean just if anybody's interested in what we do.

00:40:31.396 --> 00:40:37.309
It's not saints, um, and you can just, yeah, come and say hi, basically we'll put all the links in the the description.

00:40:38.172 --> 00:40:47.501
I've got a series of questions here that I'd like to ask, and I ask, uh, all our podcast participants, these if you've listened to any of these episodes before you might be prepared for them.

00:40:47.501 --> 00:40:50.074
My first question is what's your favourite word?

00:40:51.335 --> 00:40:56.063
Ooh, serendipity, that's mine Marvellous.

00:40:56.063 --> 00:40:56.623
There we go.

00:40:56.664 --> 00:40:57.284
Kindle spritz.

00:40:57.284 --> 00:40:59.315
What's your least favourite word?

00:40:59.795 --> 00:41:00.960
Oh, moist, nice.

00:41:01.650 --> 00:41:02.413
What excites you?

00:41:03.494 --> 00:41:03.815
Everything.

00:41:04.056 --> 00:41:04.798
What doesn't excite?

00:41:04.838 --> 00:41:06.161
you being bored.

00:41:06.469 --> 00:41:07.534
What sound on noise do you love?

00:41:09.451 --> 00:41:10.313
Making my son laugh.

00:41:10.614 --> 00:41:11.596
What sound on noise do you love?

00:41:11.615 --> 00:41:14.623
Making my son laugh.

00:41:14.623 --> 00:41:18.012
What sound on noise do you hate Clicking when?

00:41:18.032 --> 00:41:18.454
someone's got a pen.

00:41:18.454 --> 00:41:19.536
What's your favourite curse word?

00:41:19.898 --> 00:41:20.739
My favourite curse word.

00:41:20.739 --> 00:41:21.822
Can I say it on here?

00:41:21.822 --> 00:41:24.335
Yeah, of course you can.

00:41:24.335 --> 00:41:29.393
No, I'm not going to drop the C bomb, it's got to be fuck, fuck's just versatile.

00:41:29.813 --> 00:41:31.677
What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?

00:41:31.677 --> 00:41:35.572
I beg your pardon, what profession would you like to attempt If you wasn't doing music producing?

00:41:35.572 --> 00:41:36.253
What would you like to do?

00:41:36.413 --> 00:41:37.554
Oh, a human rights lawyer.

00:41:37.795 --> 00:41:40.139
Ah nice, what profession would you not like to do?

00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:44.545
Oh crikey, Anything at heights Not good at heights.

00:41:45.891 --> 00:41:47.775
Have you seen the ones is just to change a light bulb.

00:41:47.775 --> 00:41:51.342
Yeah, no Like they do it one day and you get like 30 grand for the year or something ridiculous.

00:41:51.342 --> 00:41:58.175
It's amazing, I know, and lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?

00:41:58.751 --> 00:41:59.735
Bad start, good finish.

00:41:59.896 --> 00:42:00.217
Brilliant.

00:42:00.217 --> 00:42:02.253
Thank you so much for coming on the Believe in People podcast.

00:42:02.273 --> 00:42:03.293
You've been wonderful, that's great.

00:42:03.333 --> 00:42:05.135
Thank you very.

00:42:05.135 --> 00:42:09.521
We'd love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful.

00:42:09.521 --> 00:42:12.266
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00:42:12.266 --> 00:42:17.110
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00:42:17.110 --> 00:42:24.398
For additional resources, insights and updates, explore the links in this episode description and to learn more about our mission and hear more incredible stories.

00:42:24.398 --> 00:42:27.579
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00:42:27.579 --> 00:42:29.057
Believingpeoplepodcastcom.

00:42:29.057 --> 00:42:30.536
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