#51 - Andre Edmund: Murder, 31 Years in a Los Angeles Prison, Addiction, Redemption, Gang Violence, Racism, Corruption & Redefining Freedom

WEBVTT

00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:02.068
This is a Renew Original Record.

00:00:02.068 --> 00:00:09.592
Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a British podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma.

00:00:09.592 --> 00:00:14.111
My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host or, as Alex say, your facilitator.

00:00:14.111 --> 00:00:24.208
Today I'm with Andre, who shares his powerful life story, discussing his experience of spending 31 years in a Los Angeles prison after being convicted of murder during an armed robbery.

00:00:24.208 --> 00:00:32.009
Andre reflects on the emotional turmoil that led him to commit the crime, particularly the grief of losing his child and struggling with addiction.

00:00:32.009 --> 00:00:38.648
He speaks about the harsh realities of American prison life, including gang violence, racism and systematic corruption.

00:00:38.648 --> 00:00:45.430
Throughout this conversation, he describes the turning point in his life when he sought redemption through spirituality and rehabilitation.

00:00:45.430 --> 00:00:54.593
And after finally being granted parole, andre has worked to rebuild his life, focusing on music, personal growth and his mission to help others still in the prison system.

00:00:54.593 --> 00:01:03.909
This story is one of transformational personal accountability and andre's ongoing journey to find freedom, both mentally and physically, after decades of incarceration.

00:01:05.173 --> 00:01:08.805
Andre, thank you so much for coming on the believing people podcast.

00:01:08.805 --> 00:01:29.588
I've invited you on because I think you have a very unique experience and a very unique story to share, and the big part of that story is I understand you spent 31 years in prison, which is well I'm I'm 33 years old, so it's almost my entire life that you you have spent in prison, which is which is insane.

00:01:29.588 --> 00:01:33.623
So talk me through a little bit about, because obviously you're american.

00:01:33.623 --> 00:01:35.007
Yeah, whereabouts in america?

00:01:35.007 --> 00:01:37.644
You're from los angeles even though I was born in east london.

00:01:37.823 --> 00:01:40.233
Okay, so there's the, there's the connections there then.

00:01:40.233 --> 00:01:44.986
So, um, you know this, this crime, 31 years in prison.

00:01:44.986 --> 00:01:59.733
Talk me through a little bit about what the crime was, why you committed the crime and, and I guess, who was, who was affected by it okay, um, the crime was murder, murder, robbery, which I was charged for.

00:02:00.615 --> 00:02:02.921
Uh, it happened right around the corner from my house.

00:02:02.921 --> 00:02:06.668
The answers on why I committed committed.

00:02:06.668 --> 00:02:10.082
It is not really an excuse, right, because I understand now.

00:02:10.082 --> 00:02:12.911
It's choices that we make and, in my sense, where we are at the time.

00:02:12.911 --> 00:02:22.769
But seven days prior to me committing the offense, I lost my third child, you know, and it really ultimately took me over the edge.

00:02:22.769 --> 00:02:30.056
And at that time I was probably at my lowest point because, say, a month before that, I just got discharged from the military.

00:02:30.056 --> 00:02:38.574
So at that time particular time, when I was at my low, I thought having a child like my previous two would have been the best thing for me.

00:02:38.574 --> 00:02:45.888
But actually it wasn't, because when she had a surgical miscarriage that almost, like, took me over the top, but actually it wasn't, because when she had a surgical miscarriage that almost, like, took me over the top.

00:02:45.888 --> 00:02:52.034
So I didn't deal with any of my addiction issues prior to that, whether it was alcohol, marijuana, you know, stress and things like that.

00:02:52.034 --> 00:03:00.621
So actually.

00:03:01.122 --> 00:03:06.216
I was just looking for more money to get a high or to get a drink to mitigate how I was feeling at the time.

00:03:06.216 --> 00:03:10.764
So at that time you know everything is impulsive Went home, thought I donned the camouflage, so to speak.

00:03:10.764 --> 00:03:22.060
Went to a store right around the corner, thinking, okay, if I just go in there, point the gun at him Typical criminal mind thinking that everything would went smooth because my intention was just going in take the money, I can't about anybody else.

00:03:22.060 --> 00:03:24.990
But I panicked, you know that's the truth.

00:03:24.990 --> 00:03:26.795
I panicked, discharged the.

00:03:26.795 --> 00:03:27.618
That was the truth.

00:03:27.618 --> 00:03:32.243
I panicked, discharged the weapon, ended up killing the owner.

00:03:32.243 --> 00:03:38.094
Actually, you know so, and that was probably, say, three weeks after, you know everything happened.

00:03:39.061 --> 00:03:42.789
So next thing, I know I'm in court facing the death penalty.

00:03:42.789 --> 00:03:50.753
Actually, because the way things are structured in America, especially the laws, if one felony happened in the course of another, automatically it's a death penalty.

00:03:50.753 --> 00:03:58.219
So it doesn't matter if it was accidental, they don't really look into that right at the time of just the crime, you know so.

00:03:58.219 --> 00:04:11.270
To who it affected affected, as I know now, not just my family, but theirs, like, as I know now, not just my family, but there's everybody who lived in the area that knew him or knew of him, that knew of me and my family because we lived over there.

00:04:11.289 --> 00:04:13.931
We left London in 1977.

00:04:13.931 --> 00:04:20.016
So we've been living in Los Angeles for like since 1980 in that particular house where we live.

00:04:20.016 --> 00:04:22.322
So everybody knew our family, Everybody knew me.

00:04:22.322 --> 00:04:32.673
So it was quite a shock to the community, but it wasn't until I was in prison with a life without parole sentence, that I actually had time to look back and look at.

00:04:32.673 --> 00:04:48.507
Who did I affect actually by me one making a decision to go into a store, have the audacity to want to take what they worked hard for just to suppress what I was feeling at the time but actually cost me 31 years of my life?

00:04:49.610 --> 00:04:51.634
yeah, what was that like to hear?

00:04:51.634 --> 00:04:55.791
Um, I'm just sorry, I'm just conscious of the, the beads as well with a microphone.

00:04:55.791 --> 00:04:56.817
But yeah, just just trying.

00:04:56.817 --> 00:04:57.600
Yeah, is that okay?

00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:04.100
Um, what was that like at such young age to be given a life sentence because in america life means life?

00:05:04.100 --> 00:05:06.632
You know, we hear over here in the in the uk when you're given a life sentence, because in America life means life.

00:05:06.632 --> 00:05:08.079
You know, we hear over here in the UK when you're given a life sentence.

00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:16.829
It's don't get me wrong, it is a big portion of your life 20 to 25 years, I believe it is Whereas over there in America, life is life.

00:05:17.339 --> 00:05:22.461
What was that like to be at such a young age and be told okay, you're spending the rest of your life in prison?

00:05:22.923 --> 00:05:24.225
okay, you're spending the rest of your life in prison.

00:05:24.225 --> 00:05:25.247
At that time it didn't really compute.

00:05:25.247 --> 00:05:29.994
No, because when I got sentenced I actually got found guilty by one judge, sentenced by another.

00:05:29.994 --> 00:05:38.012
But I remember sitting there coming to sentencing day and listening to how the judge was speaking to me like I was the biggest gangster of town.

00:05:38.012 --> 00:05:39.807
I'm looking around like are you speaking about me?

00:05:40.899 --> 00:05:52.187
But actually when they handed down a sentence life without the possibility of parole it really didn't register that that meant OK, you're never getting out of prison, you're going to die in prison.

00:05:52.187 --> 00:05:55.560
So that process didn't even set in.

00:05:55.560 --> 00:06:04.290
And even when I actually went to my first what they call a reception center, knowing that, OK, you're not going to get out, I didn't really have time to think about that.

00:06:04.290 --> 00:06:09.726
Because once you go into a prison in America you have to worry about the racism, you have to worry about the violence, you have to worry about all these other things.

00:06:09.726 --> 00:06:12.228
So it really didn't set in.

00:06:12.228 --> 00:06:16.151
But nor did I ever resolve that I was going to die in prison.

00:06:16.151 --> 00:06:21.461
Didn't know how it was going to work out or whatnot, but hearing that, knowing that, it was pretty traumatic for me.

00:06:22.963 --> 00:06:28.266
How long had you been in prison before it actually settled in of, okay, I'm here for life?

00:06:28.266 --> 00:06:30.387
Then how long had you been there before that?

00:06:30.387 --> 00:06:38.593
You said you didn't compute at the time, right, at what point did that realization set in and think, fuck, this is it.

00:06:38.593 --> 00:06:41.076
For me now Probably like 10 years afterwards.

00:06:41.076 --> 00:06:43.216
That's a long time for that to settle in.

00:06:43.216 --> 00:06:44.158
10, 15 years.

00:06:44.458 --> 00:06:47.146
Yeah, because up until that's a long time for that to settle in 15 years.

00:06:47.146 --> 00:06:51.244
Yeah, because up until that point, the time I went into prison, there was a lot of racial rises with a lot of other things to distract me of thinking about.

00:06:51.244 --> 00:06:54.531
Okay, I'm not going to get out of prison, or an alternative to why.

00:06:54.531 --> 00:07:10.103
Um, but around the 15th year, 14th year, when I started making my own transition, every other law you've seen everybody leave to go home and so I'm like, okay, I'm not going to go through that process because I have this lifetime.

00:07:10.925 --> 00:07:19.682
So just living in that state, knowing that, okay, you see people going home or intervening law happen, it's not going to affect me, it's something it's waiting to live with.

00:07:19.682 --> 00:07:27.052
No, because while you're in prison, you still have to maintain some quality of life, even though though you know, ok, I don't know when I'm going home.

00:07:27.052 --> 00:07:35.384
So that's the difference between some people that go to prison they might give up and they fall into everything else, but you have those who hold on to some type of hope.

00:07:35.384 --> 00:07:40.584
You know which kind of like balanced everything else, but it was still tough.

00:07:41.202 --> 00:07:48.286
I can imagine, but in one of your earlier answers you about the, the violence in prison, the racism in prison.

00:07:48.286 --> 00:07:50.492
What was prison life like then?

00:07:50.492 --> 00:07:57.095
And I imagine your experiences would be much different to what it'd be like in a in a british prison as well.

00:07:57.095 --> 00:08:06.250
Um, talk me a little bit through prison life and and if there's anything that you can think of that is, I guess, exclusive to being in an American prison as well.

00:08:08.279 --> 00:08:17.574
Prison life in America, one you have to deal with gangs, racism and corruption, whether it's coming from the internal corruption, meaning from defenders or the staff.

00:08:17.574 --> 00:08:35.647
There's a point in between where you do have fun in prison because you might meet friends, people you know, they do have sports but just a constant threat of violence because of the racial tension and the racial tension is only because of skin color, right Nothing actually genuine.

00:08:35.647 --> 00:08:43.500
So living in that constant pressurized environment, it really takes a toll out of you, you know.

00:08:43.500 --> 00:08:56.385
So, learning what not to say, where to go, how to negotiate things, how to protect yourself, you know, these are things I had to learn at a very young age, because when I went to prison in 1992, I was one of the youngest people.

00:08:56.385 --> 00:09:07.509
Everybody else either was served already 15, 20 years, and it was a different type of environment because you had to deal with people getting killed on the yard or the shot by the guards.

00:09:07.509 --> 00:09:11.081
So it's that constant threat of violence or uncertainty.

00:09:11.844 --> 00:09:20.203
So just dealing with that on its own is enough how does it compare, I think, in terms of what we see in mainstream media?

00:09:20.203 --> 00:09:21.725
Do you know american life?

00:09:21.725 --> 00:09:38.390
Um often in places like la has this depiction of of gang culture, and obviously there is um racism in america is really brought to the forefront of of the media attention, especially in the case like the george floyd case that happened, you know, a couple years ago.

00:09:38.390 --> 00:09:45.573
How does the the sort of the racism and the gang culture on the outside compared to what is in the inside?

00:09:45.573 --> 00:09:47.046
Is there a parallel between the two?

00:09:47.046 --> 00:09:49.369
Is it similar or is it different?

00:09:49.369 --> 00:09:57.279
I mean, I don't know if you're experiencing your life before prison, that feeling of worry, of violence and the way that you did when you was in prison.

00:09:57.881 --> 00:10:00.048
Is the differences is the similarities between the two.

00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:11.106
The similarities are usually the people that's in prison as gang members, were gang members before, but now there's an element of prison that adds to confinement, so you have prison gangs.

00:10:11.106 --> 00:10:18.033
Most of the shot callers, as we say, people who control the gangs or have the say-so, are in prison.

00:10:18.033 --> 00:10:27.168
They have a particular prison in Corcoran, pelican Bay, that have what they call SHU, segregated housing units, and that's usually where they send the gang leaders.

00:10:27.168 --> 00:10:35.208
However, from their cells or wherever they are, whatever happens in prison mainly happens on the street.

00:10:35.208 --> 00:10:41.907
So if there's, say, a rival gang war in prison, it usually trinkles to the street.

00:10:41.907 --> 00:10:48.726
Conversely, if a peace treaty was formed in prison, usually they'll trinket into the street.

00:10:48.726 --> 00:10:52.870
So there's always a similarity and a connection.

00:10:54.679 --> 00:11:04.807
But even in that situation it can get very bad because you're dealing with more confinement, you're dealing with more at stake on the streets.

00:11:04.807 --> 00:11:11.206
You can leave, even if there's a warfare, even if there's racial discrimination, but in prison everything is there.

00:11:11.206 --> 00:11:16.412
So imagine there's a war between the blacks or the whites or whatever.

00:11:16.412 --> 00:11:24.240
You know, when that door opens either you're going to have to fight for your life, stay in the cell, which also comes with a consequence.

00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:30.714
So you have all these variables with the gangs and you know protection and bullying and money.

00:11:30.714 --> 00:11:46.160
So there's a lot of factors between prison and the streets, you know, especially if, say, for example, a gang leader in prison tells somebody on the street to do something right, and in that lifestyle either prison or death is the outcome.

00:11:46.160 --> 00:11:54.287
So nine times out of ten, if they don't follow orders from prison on the street and they come to an institution, then they have to worry about that.

00:11:54.326 --> 00:11:58.764
So that's the similarities and that's the connections from prison is the gang culture.

00:11:58.926 --> 00:12:15.027
You know, we again, my again, my only resource is is mainstream media, but um, I've seen in TV shows where, like black people stay together white people stay together, the Mexicans stay together and, like the second, you come into prison, whether you know these people or not.

00:12:15.027 --> 00:12:18.994
It's right there, your people, whether you get along with them or not, they're the ones that you stick with.

00:12:18.994 --> 00:12:20.667
Is that the reality of prison?

00:12:20.667 --> 00:12:22.466
Is that, was that very much, your experience?

00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.427
That's very much the reality, especially in higher levels, higher levels like level four, level three.

00:12:33.427 --> 00:12:49.549
The lower you come down in levels, the less segregation that you have it might be some elements of it, but not as much, because that's one of the things that transitioning from incarceration into freedom, even over here in the uk being in close proximities with different races, being in prison for so being in close proximities with different races, being in prison for so long, like I was sharing with a couple of people.

00:12:50.379 --> 00:13:02.222
If somebody from another race approached me, or a group of blacks, they're only coming for two reasons to do you something or to do some type of illicit transaction dealing with drugs, et cetera.

00:13:02.222 --> 00:13:02.682
Where would it be?

00:13:02.682 --> 00:13:04.344
Cop elicit transaction, dealing with drugs, et cetera.

00:13:04.344 --> 00:13:04.923
Where would it be?

00:13:04.923 --> 00:13:05.604
So in prison?

00:13:05.604 --> 00:13:13.807
You know that's the situation, but dealing with it mentally and emotionally out here in the free world, it's similar because of the amount of time that I did.

00:13:13.807 --> 00:13:27.054
So, yes, there is segregation, but the length of time that I did and the ups and lows, even that's superficial, because when we really need each other, we bond with each other.

00:13:27.054 --> 00:13:31.456
So, all the segregation, this is your bench, this is this, this is that.

00:13:31.456 --> 00:13:41.106
That's the similarities of the streets too, but there's times when all that facade decreases.

00:13:41.147 --> 00:13:51.092
Talking about, like you mentioned, about the drugs and things like that, I think from an outside perspective, it was, I guess, quite naive of me to believe that, okay, they're in prison.

00:13:51.092 --> 00:13:55.570
I mean, do you know how hard it is to get things in and out of prison?

00:13:55.570 --> 00:14:00.211
It seems to be, again, something that is put forward as being difficult.

00:14:00.211 --> 00:14:02.761
Yet you often hear stories about how much drug use is going on in prisons.

00:14:02.761 --> 00:14:05.624
Yet you often hear stories about how much drug use is going on in prisons.

00:14:05.624 --> 00:14:06.885
Talk me through that, then.

00:14:06.885 --> 00:14:12.129
How do drugs end up in prison and how are they distributed amongst inmates within prison as well?

00:14:12.691 --> 00:14:14.111
Drugs can come in through visiting.

00:14:14.111 --> 00:14:20.197
When I first started my time, our families could send us boxes, you know, with food, et cetera, et cetera.

00:14:20.197 --> 00:14:23.422
People use that avenue for drugs.

00:14:23.422 --> 00:14:26.086
When they got shut down, people who come to visit you.

00:14:26.086 --> 00:14:33.089
They'll bring in and exchange you drugs or guards, so usually it was just an opportunity.

00:14:33.089 --> 00:14:38.592
If somebody saw an opportunity to get drugs in because the price is so inflated, they'll get it in.

00:14:38.592 --> 00:14:46.211
Distribution now could be either through inmates you know the people that you know who you're sleeping next to or you know the person down the landing.

00:14:46.211 --> 00:14:48.955
You know what they use the same similar to people on the streets.

00:14:48.955 --> 00:14:54.750
Everything is available in prison, from spies, heroin, marijuana, etc.

00:14:54.750 --> 00:15:02.681
So the availability of it is just like on the streets here, if you know somebody who has it or know somebody who might know.

00:15:02.721 --> 00:15:06.041
Just a conversation how are drugs paid for within prison then?

00:15:06.041 --> 00:15:09.640
Because not people don't necessarily have the access to the money that they have in the free world.

00:15:09.640 --> 00:15:12.535
How are they paying for these substances to be able to use them personally?

00:15:12.535 --> 00:15:13.299
You'll be amazed.

00:15:14.966 --> 00:15:24.288
Yeah, I would go on tell me prison yeah, because just like how drugs come in, people just getting sim cards for phones okay cash because the currency currency exchange.

00:15:24.389 --> 00:15:28.174
if somebody wanted drugs and they had cash, they would get more.

00:15:28.174 --> 00:15:37.509
But things like e-commerce whether or not they had a thing called PayPal, here's somebody for PayPal, moneygram, et cetera.

00:15:37.509 --> 00:15:46.412
Or if you have a canteen in your cell and somebody's selling something for $30, the equivalent, you'll go in your cell and get $30 equivalent and just give it to them.

00:15:46.412 --> 00:15:59.957
So the transaction is similar to the streets, you know, and it's, whether it's a small quantity or large, large quantities, where you see, like corruption between staff, because they're the only people who have the ability to bring in that amount.

00:15:59.957 --> 00:16:00.600
Yeah.

00:16:00.860 --> 00:16:15.393
So it's almost like a working relationship, so to speak, between the staff and the inmates, but it's still a problem, because in prison, yes, you have easy access to drugs, but so do overdoses.

00:16:15.393 --> 00:16:27.692
It's a lot of overdoses, it's a lot of synthetic drugs that come through prison which leads to death, and that's also one of the main things that leads to riots and violence and things in prison.

00:16:29.581 --> 00:16:30.524
How are the drugs consumed?

00:16:30.524 --> 00:16:37.123
Because I mean there's some drugs like I mean, take cocaine as an example All you need is to do is just take a sniff With some drugs.

00:16:37.123 --> 00:16:41.764
Obviously you need an amount, I guess, equipment, paraphernalia to actually use those substances.

00:16:41.764 --> 00:16:45.350
How are some of those other substances like heroin actually consumed, then?

00:16:45.350 --> 00:16:49.144
I mean, is it a case of just rubbing it into the gums or are people actually injecting it?

00:16:49.144 --> 00:16:52.961
The same way they use it out here so how are they getting access to like that equipment as well, then?

00:16:52.981 --> 00:16:57.563
like the needles and stuff, because it must be a little bit harder to get in than a little bag of brown sort of thing.

00:16:57.563 --> 00:16:57.884
Do you know?

00:16:57.965 --> 00:17:07.712
not necessarily, because if you figure, there's nurses, stations, there's medical okay, there's's people who take insulin for shots or whatnot.

00:17:07.712 --> 00:17:13.388
So you might have an inmate working in the nurses station and they might have easy access to syringe.

00:17:13.388 --> 00:17:18.847
So, it's either money exchange, exchange for drugs, so it's access to everything as far as uses.

00:17:18.847 --> 00:17:21.565
There's fire, there's any equipment that you need.

00:17:22.307 --> 00:17:24.265
So, yes, what were some of the?

00:17:24.265 --> 00:17:28.922
I guess, interestingly enough, you've been in prison for a very long time they're 31 years.

00:17:28.922 --> 00:17:33.851
Can you tell me what the worst thing that you saw in prison was?

00:17:34.814 --> 00:17:35.977
the worst thing I've seen.

00:17:36.137 --> 00:17:40.875
Wow okay, even so, even give me a few examples, yeah, a few examples.

00:17:40.875 --> 00:17:41.659
I mean I can't.

00:17:41.659 --> 00:17:58.137
You've talked, then, about like deaths, overdoses, things like that, you know, because I've seen films where people are getting, like you know, fucking stabbed in the toilets and shit like that, you know, and I always think, oh well, this is, this is the media, but you know, going back it, these are obviously based on some realities as well.

00:17:58.137 --> 00:18:00.291
So what is the actual reality?

00:18:00.291 --> 00:18:09.173
I mean, I don't know if you've seen films like Shawshank Redemption is a classic one where this sort of stuff goes on but what are some of the worst things that you've seen?

00:18:09.252 --> 00:18:19.285
personally, I mean the first day I got to prison, there was an altercation, a racial altercation that had been longstanding for a while.

00:18:19.424 --> 00:18:37.297
So I get to the yard and they had an alarm, which means something is happening, and I seen a gurney run towards the building and when I see them coming back, you had a nurse on top of the gurney giving somebody CPR and that was, for me, my first and that person ended up dying.

00:18:38.285 --> 00:18:59.490
I've seen a stage fight on one side of the yard and I seen somebody get the shirt pulled over him and two guys were just stabbing him and that was traumatic to see because when you see something like that somebody actually helpless, helpless and you know that they're going to kill this person.

00:18:59.490 --> 00:19:01.938
I've seen a person get people get raped.

00:19:01.938 --> 00:19:11.589
I've seen a person get violated in certain ways only because they might not be part of a gang, they might not have the courage to stand up for themselves.

00:19:11.589 --> 00:19:14.757
I've seen a lot of people get taken advantage of.

00:19:14.757 --> 00:19:25.473
I've seen a person get their throat cut at the fence talking to someone, thinking that they're just negotiating something that happened, but they've already plotted to kill this person.

00:19:25.473 --> 00:19:31.678
So the range of horrible things that I've witnessed includes rape to murder.

00:19:33.868 --> 00:19:38.125
Did you ever think that you would die in prison based on the things that you were seeing around you?

00:19:38.125 --> 00:19:39.650
No, no.

00:19:39.650 --> 00:19:42.154
How come, after seeing those things that was happening?

00:19:42.154 --> 00:19:42.676
Why did?

00:19:42.676 --> 00:19:44.868
Why did that thought never come into your head of you?

00:19:44.868 --> 00:19:48.727
Know, this could be me, I could get stabbed, I could be raped, and all these things.

00:19:48.727 --> 00:19:51.492
What made you feel as though you were safe?

00:19:52.855 --> 00:19:54.526
because I know I wouldn't let it happen to me.

00:19:54.526 --> 00:20:19.297
It's a and this is probably something that most people don't know most people in prison where they might be indicated as the most violent, they're just like you and me, people that either have been institutionalized and they've become savage because of the factors of prison, and it's mostly peer pressure.

00:20:19.297 --> 00:20:32.498
As a youth, that was probably my vice, being peer pressured, trying to fit in with everybody, and I knew the consequences of that, probably my first year fighting my case.

00:20:32.498 --> 00:20:46.506
So when I went to prison there's a few things that I made resolve to never be bullied, never follow a crowd, never do what everybody else says is okay and just stand up and speak for myself.

00:20:46.506 --> 00:20:58.127
And that right there kind of like nips a lot of things in the bud that might open the door to get raped, to make get taken advantage of, because prison is a breeding ground for predators.

00:20:59.030 --> 00:21:22.048
But if you allow yourself to be that and I didn't allow it, so all those things about getting stabbed, getting raped and whatnot, I didn't put myself in those type of situations in prison does that not in some way make you a target because you are going against the system and the way things are being done there, like I'd have thought, okay, this guy ain't playing ball here, this guy's standing up for himself like, fuck that, we don't have that here.

00:21:22.048 --> 00:21:23.412
You know, not really.

00:21:23.653 --> 00:21:26.385
No, I think that was one of the benefits.

00:21:26.385 --> 00:21:29.035
When I went to prison, I was an old gang member even though I was young.

00:21:29.035 --> 00:21:35.395
So in prison my first probably five years I had all-related altercation.

00:21:35.395 --> 00:21:46.751
So slimming down on the streets If somebody knows that you're not to be messed with, usually that'll set your pace for your time, your duration in prison, no matter how long you've been in prison.

00:21:46.751 --> 00:21:50.393
So it doesn't matter what anybody else had to say.

00:21:50.393 --> 00:21:51.135
I've been through that.

00:21:51.135 --> 00:21:58.057
I know the consequences of that, so that really wasn't a factor for me after I went to prison.

00:21:58.057 --> 00:22:15.015
So it wouldn't matter what anybody said or how they felt, even me not disassociating myself from my gang, but making a defining line Okay, I'm not a gang member, you guys are my tribe, I'm going to be that person you can talk to or rely on that.

00:22:15.015 --> 00:22:15.916
I wish I had.

00:22:16.704 --> 00:22:17.952
Right going to be that person you can talk to or rely on that.

00:22:17.952 --> 00:22:18.336
I wish I had right.

00:22:18.336 --> 00:22:22.310
So usually when that's known, everybody else, they just have everything else.

00:22:22.310 --> 00:22:29.153
But there's always that static fact of, yes, somebody's going to say something or have something to say, you know.

00:22:29.153 --> 00:22:34.712
But it was just a matter for me just having that internal courage, that internal resolve and drawing that line.

00:22:34.712 --> 00:22:37.558
We're like, no, this isn't going to happen.

00:22:38.346 --> 00:22:41.015
How did you sort of distance yourself from?

00:22:41.015 --> 00:22:45.872
You said, when you went into prison you was part of a gang and then over time you've kind of distanced yourself from that.

00:22:45.872 --> 00:22:51.209
What was that like, and was it easy to distance yourself from it, or was it?

00:22:51.209 --> 00:22:53.255
Did you experience some resistance in that?

00:22:54.405 --> 00:22:56.534
It was easy because I know what I wanted.

00:22:56.534 --> 00:23:07.153
The only tug that I did feel it was people who I met while in prison, that I knew from the streets and we had like a childhood relationship.

00:23:07.153 --> 00:23:11.655
So they felt that I was leaving a gang of personal reasons.

00:23:11.655 --> 00:23:12.728
So it was more of a.

00:23:12.728 --> 00:23:14.734
They felt that I was leaving them.

00:23:14.734 --> 00:23:21.730
But I was to the point where it doesn't matter how you feel, you could not like it, you could like it or whatnot.

00:23:21.730 --> 00:23:24.933
You can ask me why did I choose to mature?

00:23:24.933 --> 00:23:29.796
Right, and that's one of the things in prison because I'm Muslim.

00:23:30.425 --> 00:23:36.679
A lot of people think when you become Muslim or any other faith or change your life, you have to leave the people who you grew up with.

00:23:36.679 --> 00:23:51.038
For me it was more just leaving the lifestyle of a gang member, the criminal activity, the unhealthy lifestyle, the value system, the predatory nature.

00:23:51.038 --> 00:24:02.237
But when I looked at the people who were gang members, I'm looking at people who I used to live next door to Somebody else's son that might need guidance or be in a worse situation off than me.

00:24:02.237 --> 00:24:13.976
So it really wasn't so much disassociating myself from people, it was disassociating myself from the lifestyle, because at that point I already realized the lifestyle got me life in prison.

00:24:14.865 --> 00:24:19.037
The lifestyle played a part in me losing three of my kids.

00:24:19.037 --> 00:24:23.134
The lifestyle got me discharged from the military.

00:24:23.134 --> 00:24:26.114
The lifestyle ruled my whole sports career.

00:24:26.114 --> 00:24:29.074
The lifestyle did a whole lot of these things.

00:24:29.074 --> 00:24:32.154
So I had this pre-knowledge going into prison.

00:24:32.154 --> 00:24:43.837
So, being set on my discipline, it wasn't as hard as others might experience, like going to one of their fellow gang members be like I don't want to do that anymore.

00:24:43.837 --> 00:24:46.672
Yeah, I've seen people get stabbed for that that's what.

00:24:46.692 --> 00:24:48.159
That's what I was thinking, you know.

00:24:48.159 --> 00:24:49.605
Yeah, exactly, blood in, blood out.

00:24:49.605 --> 00:24:50.848
That is exactly what I was thinking.

00:24:50.848 --> 00:24:57.737
So it's quite interesting that you you was able to do that and you mentioned there about religion as well was was the muslim faith something that you was able to do that and you mentioned there about religion as well?

00:24:57.737 --> 00:25:00.082
Was the Muslim faith something that you found whilst you was in prison?

00:25:00.082 --> 00:25:01.991
Was it something that you found that?

00:25:02.031 --> 00:25:02.393
in prison.

00:25:02.393 --> 00:25:13.473
I grew up in Catholic school, my mother's Seventh-day Adventist, so I always had that religious slash, spiritual presence in the house.

00:25:13.473 --> 00:25:17.951
But it didn't relate to me when I was facing the death penalty.

00:25:17.951 --> 00:25:21.894
I remember the county jail same time Rodney King Rice was happening.

00:25:21.894 --> 00:25:24.833
Imagine being 20 years old.

00:25:24.833 --> 00:25:29.096
The only thing you have in your head okay, death penalty, death penalty, death penalty.

00:25:30.605 --> 00:25:36.030
I remember very poignantly getting on my knees and be like oh God, if you just get me out of this.

00:25:36.030 --> 00:25:46.056
Just this last time, which was quite a familiar state with me because I've been in some very precarious situations shootouts, near-death experiences et cetera.

00:25:46.056 --> 00:25:57.034
But this situation was kind of different because I knew this wasn't one I could have to live myself out of, manipulate the results, to get up out of.

00:25:57.034 --> 00:26:03.412
So I found myself on my knees crying be like God, please just get me up out of this situation.

00:26:03.412 --> 00:26:12.247
So at that time it wasn't so much that I was identifying with a religion, I just needed that type of help that I knew I was in a bad situation.

00:26:12.247 --> 00:26:16.762
So from there it just came with going to church, praying, reading et cetera.

00:26:16.844 --> 00:26:18.931
Long story short going into prison.

00:26:18.931 --> 00:26:23.705
One of my friends actually was an enemy on the street rival gang member.

00:26:23.705 --> 00:26:24.507
He was a Muslim.

00:26:24.507 --> 00:26:31.006
He introduced me to come to Juma one day and I bended off like no, I'm cool.

00:26:31.006 --> 00:26:34.133
My dad sent me a Quran Early days in prison.

00:26:34.133 --> 00:26:35.736
He was like you know what's going on with the Muslims?

00:26:35.736 --> 00:26:55.451
I would like to say if they can help with the Crips, you know, because you see, even with the Muslims or anybody who has a religious body in there, the same things, whether it be racism, arrogance, et cetera, et cetera, because everybody finds their way, but me, because my need was so sincere.

00:26:55.571 --> 00:27:00.259
So was my quest, you know, for spirituality, because I know I needed some type of help.

00:27:00.259 --> 00:27:04.195
So it was almost like a progressive stage thing.

00:27:04.195 --> 00:27:11.018
And Islam I chose Islam because actually it just gave me all the answers to the questions that I have.

00:27:11.018 --> 00:27:16.016
Not to the point where I thought Islam was better than Christianity or this was better than that.

00:27:16.016 --> 00:27:17.500
That's not how I came into my spiritual awareness or place in Islam.

00:27:17.500 --> 00:27:19.724
To the point where I thought Islam was better than Christianity or this was better than that.

00:27:19.724 --> 00:27:25.750
That's not how I came into my spiritual awareness or place in Islam.

00:27:25.750 --> 00:27:26.872
It was just a gradual thing of one education.

00:27:26.872 --> 00:27:32.807
It made the most sense to me and, through my experience, whether it was through the military gangs and that regimented lifestyle.

00:27:32.807 --> 00:27:35.148
It gave me an order, it gave me a purpose, and that regimented lifestyle it gave me an order, you know.

00:27:35.209 --> 00:27:56.071
It gave me a purpose, and the first thing in Islam that I learned from my best friend was how to purify the way I thought, the way I processed my feelings, because, in essence, that's how I responded in life, that's how I was going to live my life, regardless of who I said I was.

00:27:56.071 --> 00:28:03.855
The way I processed emotions was all backwards, from the time I can remember all the way up to I went to prison.

00:28:03.855 --> 00:28:12.412
I've been through so many emotional ups and downs get kicked out of five grades and one grade level, being bullied, and all this.

00:28:12.412 --> 00:28:19.398
So Islam gave me a good benchmark on how to deal with all of these things, you know.

00:28:20.046 --> 00:28:20.768
Did it put you in?

00:28:20.768 --> 00:28:24.616
Going back to the whole the groups within prison?

00:28:24.616 --> 00:28:27.787
You know we spoke to all the blacks, whites, mexicans In this country.

00:28:27.787 --> 00:28:34.673
Specifically, I think Muslims probably receive some of the, I guess, some of the most racism in this country.

00:28:34.673 --> 00:28:47.128
Did that put you in like two separate camps of being black and being muslim as well, or was it still just one sort of identity within the prison of being with being with black people?

00:28:50.474 --> 00:28:51.175
it was double.

00:28:51.175 --> 00:28:56.612
It was double because one you're not looked at favorably in prison as being black.

00:28:56.612 --> 00:29:03.887
We all look at the problem demographic, which in some respects we are Additionally being Muslim.

00:29:03.887 --> 00:29:20.087
Double the bad image because most of the correctional officers in the CDC are either military, military law enforcement, and we know about 9-11.

00:29:20.087 --> 00:29:23.238
Yeah, so that was an added pressure, you know.

00:29:23.238 --> 00:29:25.464
So, yes, that's understandable.

00:29:26.125 --> 00:29:40.872
Talk me through some of the um corruption that you may have experienced, because, based on what you've told me so far, corruption seems to be rife within prison anyway, and it's another thing when we talk about culture.

00:29:40.872 --> 00:29:47.498
There's been a story recently in the news of improper conduct by a prison officer.

00:29:47.498 --> 00:29:50.933
What sort of corruption have you experienced?

00:29:50.933 --> 00:29:57.977
You said about double the hate then and you said around the actual staff that worked there.

00:29:57.977 --> 00:30:05.775
Talk me through some of the corruption that you've witnessed in prison, or any corruption that you've experienced yourself being in that system.

00:30:07.444 --> 00:30:29.511
Well, prison guards used to make bets between themselves who would win fights on a shoe yarn, knowing that in their job to break up a fight there were tears, Audible, get down Next warning shot, which they're not any an actual shooting, and this is their protocol.

00:30:29.511 --> 00:30:39.817
But on one hand they had an organization, a CO, called the Green Wall, and what they do is like a police prison gang amongst the COs.

00:30:39.817 --> 00:30:43.996
So they would actually bet on who would win the fight, the blacks or the Mexicans, et cetera.

00:30:43.996 --> 00:30:59.874
And most of the time, if there's only 20 people allotted to a shoe yard, they might let out 10 Mexicans and three blacks, knowing the situation of who would win.

00:30:59.874 --> 00:31:11.455
And I've actually seen one time when they shot the black person after they won their bet, and that was one of the big things that got Pelican Blade shoot closed.

00:31:12.066 --> 00:31:13.050
I've seen that corruption.

00:31:13.050 --> 00:31:16.575
I've seen the corruption to where a CO will come.

00:31:16.575 --> 00:31:21.230
A correctional officer will come, tell you that they can bring you drugs, et cetera.

00:31:21.230 --> 00:31:29.000
They bring you the drugs, et cetera, and they'll turn around, raid your cell, take all your phones and all that, get all your money.

00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:35.653
Another form of corruption I've seen correctional officers bring other inmates' knives.

00:31:35.653 --> 00:31:38.419
You know buck knives and things like that.

00:31:38.419 --> 00:31:45.429
So that level of corruption is ripe Right, Even on an administrative level.

00:31:45.489 --> 00:31:51.548
If you were to get written up by a correctional officer for something that you're actually innocent for, because there's so much.

00:31:51.548 --> 00:32:01.740
They are so intertwined in protecting each other, right up to the warden, All the paperwork will be legitimized as if it was okay.

00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:15.892
You have that line of corruption which I believe before I paroled, three wardens got fired because a warden is the commanding chief of the prison but under that they had a thing called.

00:32:15.892 --> 00:32:18.397
I think the equivalent over here is a volcano squad.

00:32:18.397 --> 00:32:21.451
They'll come in and do whatever they want to do.

00:32:21.451 --> 00:32:44.857
I've seen them forcefully beat you up and when I say beat you up, bones broken, um hospitalization, but they'll just tuck you away, tell your family you're sick or you're out to court and these type of things Flashlight therapy, any type of resistance, even if you're right, you'll be missing for two weeks.

00:32:45.038 --> 00:32:46.079
What's flashlight therapy?

00:32:46.345 --> 00:32:47.488
Flashlight therapy.

00:32:47.488 --> 00:32:53.532
They have flashlights about, like it's, the sheriffs and they'll be trilled with it.

00:32:53.532 --> 00:32:55.653
That's what they call it flashlight therapy.

00:32:56.645 --> 00:33:00.316
So a lot of police brutality back in Ad Seg and the shoes.

00:33:00.316 --> 00:33:18.006
But the corruption is so interwound because you might have a nurse team assisting the SEALs because everything has to be caught on camera CCTV, but they'll tell them you wait right there, they'll abuse whoever they have, then bring in the nurses, edit a whole lot of stuff.

00:33:18.006 --> 00:33:22.054
So the type of corruption is ripe in prison.

00:33:22.054 --> 00:33:27.651
But as an inmate you still have to find your lane because one.

00:33:27.651 --> 00:33:43.657
You have to stay safe, you have to create and nurture a quality of living in prison because you still have education, you still have those avenues, you can still see your family, you can still do all these pro uh, rehabilitative things.

00:33:43.657 --> 00:33:53.016
But to get caught in that sway of internal corruption is kind of difficult why do you think the corruption happens like?

00:33:53.056 --> 00:33:58.808
why do you think police officers are correctional officers, sorry are engaging in this corruption?

00:33:58.808 --> 00:34:02.726
Why not just go do your job, maintain a level of peace in the prison and go home?

00:34:02.726 --> 00:34:04.830
How is that happening?

00:34:04.830 --> 00:34:06.875
How are they being influenced to do what they're doing?

00:34:07.497 --> 00:34:09.427
because a lot of them feel that we deserve to be there.

00:34:09.427 --> 00:34:15.186
A lot of of correctional officers not a a high perception.

00:34:15.186 --> 00:34:26.972
A high percentage of correctional officers deserve feel you deserve to be there because after you harm someone so they're not gonna treat you the way a normal society would.

00:34:26.972 --> 00:34:28.931
You don't have any rights.

00:34:28.931 --> 00:34:31.132
So that's the mindset.

00:34:31.132 --> 00:34:41.297
Additionally, they get it in their training right so they come in there with that Because sometimes they could just come into a grown man's room say they want to do a search.

00:34:41.297 --> 00:34:51.898
They humiliate you, have you get stripped naked and do all these dehumidifying things, go through your personal stuff, only because they feel that you don't have any rights.

00:34:51.898 --> 00:34:59.778
Especially if it's crimes about domestic violence, murder, anything victim impacted, which prison is always victim impacted.

00:34:59.778 --> 00:35:01.612
They have that mindset.

00:35:01.612 --> 00:35:04.733
That's why you might also see on the yard.

00:35:04.733 --> 00:35:10.632
Everybody knows when something is happening in prison, any type of violence they already know.

00:35:10.632 --> 00:35:13.753
That's another point of corruption in prison.

00:35:13.753 --> 00:35:14.385
You communicate with the staff.

00:35:14.385 --> 00:35:16.485
The point of corruption in prison you communicate with the staff.

00:35:16.585 --> 00:35:26.440
So if something, if somebody is gonna be assaulted, they will wait until the assault is finished, then make their way over there.

00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:35.802
Because in prison it's also a give and take thing, because as much as the staff are corrupted, the prisoners actually run the prison.

00:35:35.802 --> 00:35:42.382
Because at any day somebody could be like okay, we're not going inside, we're tired.

00:35:42.382 --> 00:35:51.384
The standards, whether it be eating, whether it be medical, whether it be just basic humanity and respect, anything could happen and a prison could shut down.

00:35:51.384 --> 00:35:54.639
So those are the reasons why it happens.

00:35:55.110 --> 00:35:56.300
Who do you think the worst threat?

00:35:56.300 --> 00:35:57.329
People are in prison.

00:35:57.329 --> 00:36:00.458
Who gets the brunt of this corruption?

00:36:00.458 --> 00:36:01.340
The worst, would you say?

00:36:05.570 --> 00:36:07.996
Probably those who aren't affiliated with a gang or group.

00:36:08.818 --> 00:36:14.958
Individuals what about um sexual predators, child molesters like what I mean?

00:36:14.958 --> 00:36:16.039
Obviously are they.

00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:20.355
I understand they're separated from a lot of the other people.

00:36:20.355 --> 00:36:20.635
Is that?

00:36:20.635 --> 00:36:24.896
The case in the american prisons as well yes, so you wouldn't have ever come into contact with those people, and would you?

00:36:24.916 --> 00:36:29.980
let's try to hide it yeah, and once it's found out, then they're pretty much dead have you?

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:30.641
have you seen that?

00:36:30.641 --> 00:36:31.610
Have you experienced that?

00:36:31.831 --> 00:36:42.239
yes, talk me through that um, it was just one particular guy, but it was rumors that he was in there for domestic violence and child molestation.

00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:43.764
But he was a gang member.

00:36:43.764 --> 00:36:49.269
Okay, right, so you have to bias this and whatnot, but it was some higher up saying that.

00:36:49.269 --> 00:36:52.998
No, if it's one rule for one, there's one from paul.

00:36:52.998 --> 00:36:59.521
But what he did is he was changed all his court transcripts, everything that indicated what his actual crime was for.

00:36:59.521 --> 00:37:05.793
Um, and they found out, I think two weeks later he was doing on the weight pile.

00:37:05.813 --> 00:37:13.478
That's when they had waste before they took it and two guys hit him in the head with a dumbbell geez and killed him yeah, well it's Later.

00:37:13.498 --> 00:37:19.822
He was doing on the weight pile that's when they had to waste before they took it and two guys hit him in the head with a dumbbell Jeez and killed him.

00:37:19.842 --> 00:37:22.384
Well it's straight up, killed him there as soon as they found out.

00:37:22.443 --> 00:37:22.643
That's it.

00:37:22.643 --> 00:37:23.605
There is no, it's not caught, is it?

00:37:23.605 --> 00:37:24.184
Do you know what I mean?

00:37:24.184 --> 00:37:24.724
There is no.

00:37:24.724 --> 00:37:26.746
Oh, let's hear what you've got to say.

00:37:26.746 --> 00:37:27.106
No, it's not.

00:37:27.106 --> 00:37:28.007
Things happen anyway.

00:37:28.068 --> 00:37:28.168
Yeah.

00:37:28.351 --> 00:37:32.715
And if they're going to judge people based on what they've done prior to coming to prison, they're not going to give a shit.

00:37:32.715 --> 00:37:34.398
Are they about a child, a sexual predator?

00:37:34.438 --> 00:37:34.778
a child molester.

00:37:34.778 --> 00:37:35.601
They usually turn a blind eye.

00:37:35.681 --> 00:37:36.663
Yeah, of course they would.

00:37:37.103 --> 00:37:37.684
Usually they would.

00:37:38.030 --> 00:37:40.972
You mentioned a little bit about parole.

00:37:40.972 --> 00:37:46.996
31 years in prison you thought you was going to die there.

00:37:46.996 --> 00:37:50.737
At what point, how many times did you visit the parole board?

00:37:50.737 --> 00:37:53.018
What came about you getting parole?

00:37:53.018 --> 00:38:02.844
Talk me a little bit about that process and your experiences there, Because, again, it's not a case of you just see people once and they tend to let you go.

00:38:02.844 --> 00:38:05.626
It's often you have to see them time and time and time again.

00:38:05.626 --> 00:38:06.907
Was that your experience?

00:38:07.610 --> 00:38:08.579
No often you have to see him time and time and time again.

00:38:08.579 --> 00:38:08.936
Was that your experience?

00:38:08.936 --> 00:38:10.233
No, actually, I had life without parole.

00:38:10.233 --> 00:38:14.000
Okay, all the way up to november 18, 2018.

00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:21.858
Okay, right, what I did was I submitted a application for computation what's that?

00:38:21.858 --> 00:38:25.672
Um, which is the application for clemency and to shorten your sentence.

00:38:25.693 --> 00:38:30.003
That goes directly to the governor, and at that time, it was Jerry Brown.

00:38:30.003 --> 00:38:38.563
He was leaving office for the second time, but all the way up from 1992, all the way up to 2018, I had life without the possibility of parole.

00:38:38.563 --> 00:38:51.094
So any law or any other relief that affected everybody else or another designated lifer, it didn't touch what they call the condemned, meaning those on death row and those without life without parole.

00:38:51.094 --> 00:38:58.014
But on November 18th November 18th 2018, my application for commutation was granted.

00:38:58.014 --> 00:39:01.182
At that time, I had already served 27 years.

00:39:01.182 --> 00:39:03.333
So what happened then?

00:39:03.333 --> 00:39:15.693
When my sentence was reduced to 30 years to life, because I was a youth offender, which means whoever committed their crime 20 years and younger can go to the parole board because they were deemed a youth offender.

00:39:16.757 --> 00:39:20.617
So I went Was that a new thing that was introduced then, or was that something that's always been the case?

00:39:20.789 --> 00:39:25.918
It wasn't a new law, because when the law came out, it only affected those who were 14 years and younger.

00:39:26.119 --> 00:39:26.599
Okay, yeah.

00:39:27.070 --> 00:39:28.800
Two years later it affected those who were 14 years and younger.

00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:32.652
Two years later it affected those who were 17 years and younger, Like five years later.

00:39:32.652 --> 00:39:38.376
After that, now it affected those who were 20 years and younger, irrespective of their sentence.

00:39:38.376 --> 00:39:42.818
But because mine was 30 years, to life automatically.

00:39:42.818 --> 00:40:00.179
I went to the parole board nine months later and, yeah, I thought I was ready because by that time I was already a man, I was already a facilitator of a lot of rehabilitative groups, so I was on a good traction had good traction, first parole board here, and I got denied seven years.

00:40:01.289 --> 00:40:14.686
Because now, what they did, every infraction that I accumulated from 1992 up until that point they used against me, irrespective of the progress that I made along that time.

00:40:14.686 --> 00:40:22.123
So seven years was a denial crushed me, really, really crushed me.

00:40:22.123 --> 00:40:39.617
They moved me to another prison, level two prison, which was probably my hardest time, because now from general population now I'm in a prison with child molesters, people who couldn't survive the main line, everybody that left where I was for the longest.

00:40:39.617 --> 00:40:41.902
Now I'm there in an open environment.

00:40:41.902 --> 00:40:43.737
So now I had to deal with that.

00:40:44.532 --> 00:40:45.717
And what was that move for then?

00:40:46.190 --> 00:40:51.235
Because what CDCR did they tried to because maybe you asked a question what did they do with the sexual?

00:40:51.235 --> 00:40:51.876
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:40:51.876 --> 00:40:53.581
They what they did.

00:40:53.581 --> 00:40:57.594
They put them on a yard called SNY Sensitive Needs Yards.

00:40:57.594 --> 00:41:04.438
They segregated them, but what they did, I think five years prior, was take away the SNY.

00:41:04.438 --> 00:41:04.998
Okay was take away the.

00:41:04.998 --> 00:41:10.286
Sny and call them non-designated facilities, which meant anybody can go there.

00:41:10.650 --> 00:41:11.695
Okay, yeah, I get you now.

00:41:12.831 --> 00:41:15.900
And that level of corruption cost people their lives.

00:41:15.900 --> 00:41:24.362
Because now you're forcing people from general population to go somewhere where one if and when you go now your name is tarnished.

00:41:24.362 --> 00:41:28.661
Now you're likely if anybody finds out, you're likely to be killed.

00:41:28.661 --> 00:41:37.914
But now I had to spend the next how many of years rectifying what I needed to do, because I know I was going back to the parole board, and that was three years later.

00:41:37.914 --> 00:41:46.518
I went same intense questions similar to our discussion, because they wanted no answers, which rightfully so.

00:41:46.518 --> 00:41:50.239
So at that hearing they found me suitable for parole.

00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:51.751
I went.

00:41:51.771 --> 00:41:59.969
I got parole like nine months later but the reason why I'm here I went right into federal custody.

00:41:59.969 --> 00:42:05.822
So even though I left state custody, they were waiting for me in what they call reception and release.

00:42:05.822 --> 00:42:11.643
So I spent an additional three months waiting to see what my immigration status would have been about.

00:42:11.643 --> 00:42:28.893
And that didn't fare well, because if I could have stayed, fought it, because when I was in the military, to my example, in incarceration everything leading up to it would have fared kind of weighty, but it would have took about two years and I wasn't prepared to do that.

00:42:28.893 --> 00:42:32.266
So that's how I got deported so you got deported.

00:42:32.306 --> 00:42:36.257
You got deported back here, is that why I'd say I thought you'd come over here by choice.

00:42:36.257 --> 00:42:37.661
No, I was thinking, why would you?

00:42:37.661 --> 00:42:39.815
Why would you come to england by choice from la?

00:42:39.815 --> 00:42:45.695
But okay, so the actual deportation yes, that's interesting, you used the word earlier institutionalized.

00:42:45.695 --> 00:42:57.081
And after 31 years, I can't imagine what it was like going from being in prison to the world and I mean you again.

00:42:57.081 --> 00:43:04.021
I'm 33 years old, the changes that I've experienced in my lifetime, that I've been able to adapt to because I'm here, I'm living it.

00:43:04.021 --> 00:43:07.135
What was that like for you coming out of prison?

00:43:07.135 --> 00:43:15.059
And I guess, what was your biggest shock in terms of how the world was now, to how it was before you'd gone into prison?

00:43:16.990 --> 00:43:18.195
The world hasn't changed too much.

00:43:18.195 --> 00:43:21.275
Really, I think they got more rude.

00:43:21.818 --> 00:43:22.099
Okay.

00:43:22.990 --> 00:43:26.561
People are more disconnected, more fast-paced.

00:43:27.690 --> 00:43:33.972
I'm still transitioning because I've been out about 18 months now, so just the whole one.

00:43:33.972 --> 00:43:50.597
Leaving society in 1992, getting on a plane, that was terrifying, so having to deal with that, but coming to a new country not knowing anybody, that's similar to going to another prison, so that didn't really bother me.

00:43:50.597 --> 00:44:03.001
What was tricky was going on public transportation, interacting with different dangers, different people, closing spaces, fast reactions, those type of things.

00:44:03.001 --> 00:44:11.003
And it's similar to when I was younger all the external triggers and stress management et cetera, et cetera.

00:44:11.003 --> 00:44:29.233
And that's unique probably to my story because one I spent all those years in prison, including federal detention, to come to a new country where I have no recollection of so the amount of stress I've experienced from the first day.

00:44:30.434 --> 00:44:34.181
It wasn't the same type of stress that I was going through when I was younger.

00:44:34.181 --> 00:44:41.378
Same factors, same people, same losing a job, getting a job, et cetera, et cetera.

00:44:41.378 --> 00:44:46.376
But now being able to manage it because I managed it in prison for so long.

00:44:46.376 --> 00:44:49.693
They're still there and I think it's heightened now.

00:44:49.693 --> 00:44:52.052
I'm barely getting relaxed now being on the train.

00:44:52.052 --> 00:44:52.614
Yeah.

00:44:53.184 --> 00:45:02.896
Going through dark tunnels and people brushing up on you, having conversations in different forms and just being able to walk without walking in a circle in prison.

00:45:02.896 --> 00:45:07.134
That's all you do, so I'm still adapting to society.

00:45:08.226 --> 00:45:10.032
What was the first thing you did when you came out of prison?

00:45:10.032 --> 00:45:13.728
What was the first luxury?

00:45:13.728 --> 00:45:16.255
You treated yourself to Pizza Nice.

00:45:16.255 --> 00:45:22.052
I knew it would be something really simple, but I mean anywhere in particular.

00:45:23.969 --> 00:45:25.172
No, because I went to Paddington.

00:45:25.172 --> 00:45:27.945
Okay, yeah, yeah, so I didn't know anything.

00:45:27.945 --> 00:45:28.528
I just looked at the closest pizza shop, went to the hostel.

00:45:28.528 --> 00:45:28.646
Yeah, yeah, so I didn't know anything.

00:45:28.646 --> 00:45:32.876
I just looked at the closest pizza shop, went to the hostel, which was right around the corner.

00:45:32.876 --> 00:45:34.545
It took me about an hour to get there.

00:45:34.545 --> 00:45:42.414
I still couldn't use google maps so it was a long um a line of eateries, so I just went to the closest one yeah got something.

00:45:42.474 --> 00:45:49.856
It was wonderful yeah, I imagine it could be the worst pizza in the world but I imagine in that moment it still tasted like the best pizza in the world.

00:45:49.856 --> 00:45:58.431
I guess do you know what's next for you then, after 31 years in prison, 18 months on the outside?

00:45:58.431 --> 00:46:01.494
Now what is next for Andre?

00:46:02.327 --> 00:46:09.391
The next thing for me is launching my entertainment agent, because I grew up in dance hall, I grew up in music.

00:46:09.391 --> 00:46:14.648
That's what was a thing that I was good at before I went to prison, so quite recently.

00:46:14.648 --> 00:46:35.338
What I did after coming back from Trinidad, which I'll speak to you about, I think it's music, you know, putting on events, putting on shows, because that's what I'm good at, you know, and it's another thing, that's another stress factor Not being in the country for three years or not having property or something in this country.

00:46:35.338 --> 00:46:41.538
A lot of opportunities got closed for me which could be another external factor of stress.

00:46:43.485 --> 00:46:48.038
So what's for me now is launching what I call sensory seduction entertainment.

00:46:48.038 --> 00:46:57.739
It's just not about DJing, it's not about investment, it's more about empowering the people empowering ourselves, you know, and actually using what I'm good at in a legal way.

00:46:57.739 --> 00:47:09.045
You know, because, like I said, I just came back from Trinidad and one of the things that happened while I was in prison, my father passed away you know and I inherited everything from him.

00:47:09.907 --> 00:47:12.753
You know his business, the property, et cetera, et cetera.

00:47:12.753 --> 00:47:32.195
So, yes, music and all these things might be at the forefront, but now, person coming out of prison, now in Trinidad, I have other siblings and other relatives where my performance, the way I respond to things, my business, etiquette, et cetera, they're dependent on me now.

00:47:32.195 --> 00:47:32.815
Yeah.

00:47:32.815 --> 00:47:33.436
You know.

00:47:33.436 --> 00:47:43.268
So that's the next thing for me putting myself in a position here in London to where I could be able to one go back and forth to Trinidad, because my mom is aging.

00:47:43.288 --> 00:47:56.335
It's a lot of factors that came into play and was poignant for me now, you know, as a person who used to be what probably the most untrustworthy person in my family, now to being the head of the family, my dad's only son.

00:47:56.335 --> 00:48:04.405
It's kind of surreal, but I know those type of situations is what prison actually prepared me for, you know.

00:48:04.445 --> 00:48:18.574
So that's where I'm at now All the minor problems like I tried to go get a laptop, the other day because when I came back from Trinidad I dropped my rucksack on the train line, messed up my well, it kind of jogged up my laptop.

00:48:18.574 --> 00:48:20.646
So I said, okay, I need a new laptop.

00:48:21.025 --> 00:48:25.512
So I went to Curry's, got the MacBook Pro I think it was the MacBook Pro M3.

00:48:25.512 --> 00:48:28.396
Everything he had it on the table, everything.

00:48:28.396 --> 00:48:32.581
I got the price down to like $49 a month, et cetera, et cetera.

00:48:32.581 --> 00:48:40.657
I'm like, okay, because I just brought a new system, Did the credit check and the only reason I couldn't get it because I didn't have three years residency.

00:48:40.657 --> 00:48:43.079
Oh, okay, so these are.

00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:48.943
Before going to prison, I probably went home, took a drink and did something, not knowing how to process that.

00:48:49.425 --> 00:49:05.547
But now it's like OK, so these are the things which I've been, you know, having to adjust, you know, and how prison has actually served as a ground for education, and how I'm going to apply it now, even over here in England, you know.

00:49:05.547 --> 00:49:22.989
So that's the next things for me, things for me just building that so I could be able to relieve my mother of the duties that she's doing, like the landlord duties, making sure that my family's all right, making sure that I'm economically all right, because you know, hey, it's bills to pay, absolutely you know all these things to pay.

00:49:24.086 --> 00:49:37.530
So I understand that, despite being in prison for as long as you have been, you've recently taken a job where you're going to be voluntarily going back into prison now, yes, and being on the opposite end of that and helping people, as, as you were saying.

00:49:37.530 --> 00:49:41.686
What's the mindset after 31 years in prison?

00:49:41.686 --> 00:49:48.360
To think, right, I'm gonna go back now and, um, I'm gonna help people, right, what?

00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:49.664
Talk me through that, because I can't.

00:49:49.664 --> 00:49:53.994
Personally, if I'd spent 31 years in prison, the last place I'd ever want to go again is prison.

00:49:53.994 --> 00:49:58.925
I think just walking around with guards and the locks on the doors and all I'd find it really triggering after 31 years.

00:49:58.925 --> 00:50:01.753
But I suppose to you, in some way it's normal to you.

00:50:01.753 --> 00:50:03.764
That was your life for such a long time.

00:50:03.764 --> 00:50:07.730
So what reason have you wanted to go back to prison to help people?

00:50:09.771 --> 00:50:10.853
the path of amends.

00:50:10.853 --> 00:50:18.846
Um, I learned in prison for me personally stop trying to do things that you're not good at.

00:50:18.846 --> 00:50:43.755
Um, it's one thing I learned in prison how I got there and through 31 years being in prison being a part of self-help groups, created self-help groups myself and et cetera, having people come to the temple and actually teaching people you actually find out why people came to prison and the help and the support that they need on the streets.

00:50:43.755 --> 00:50:53.043
I also know that crime is a very, very real thing, how it affects the victims, how it affects the community.

00:50:53.043 --> 00:51:14.813
That snowball and I know that I was a major factor in both, because growing up, excellent education, sports, could have went professional in four sports, wanted to become a cop, wanted to do all these things right.

00:51:14.985 --> 00:51:36.130
But because of my lifestyle, living in the streets, being attracted to certain things and not having the ability nor the education nor the application skill to get it landed me in prison for a very long time and ultimately it made me make a choice, whether it be a poor choice or not.00:51:36.130 --> 00:51:37.974


Another life was lost.00:51:37.974 --> 00:51:46.436


So I owe that in the path of amends because I know that it just wasn't the direct victim that was affected.00:51:46.436 --> 00:51:48.237


Even my family was affected.00:51:48.237 --> 00:51:49.652


The direct victim that was affected it was even my family was affected.00:51:49.652 --> 00:51:53.711


You know people that knew him was affected, and when I was young I didn't speak.00:51:54.585 --> 00:51:56.152


I wasn't courageous enough to speak.00:51:56.152 --> 00:51:58.472


I always took the backseat to everything.00:51:58.472 --> 00:52:03.336


There's one thing in prison that I learned and became was a leader Right.00:52:03.336 --> 00:52:10.289


So I knew in prison one of the things that I wanted to do and was going to do was go back in prison when I got out and to help.00:52:10.289 --> 00:52:27.181


You know, whether it be on the administrative side, whether I'll be developing rehabilitative courses for the staff to provide for the inmates to where they can one change the culture within the prisons and be prepared when they get out of prisons.00:52:27.181 --> 00:52:30.791


Like different skills and I know that well.00:52:30.791 --> 00:52:32.795


Like you said, that's my whole lived experience.00:52:32.795 --> 00:52:50.119


So me spending time on something else wouldn't be fruitful for me, nor is it something that I'm accountable for, so you can say it's more waiting on the side of accountability Came up through the gangs or waiting on the side of accountability, came up through the gangs.00:52:53.005 --> 00:52:53.931


I learned through the gangs where best to go.00:52:53.931 --> 00:52:58.634


Give your knowledge and your lived experience and your example in prison, because that's what I've been doing.00:52:58.634 --> 00:53:04.134


I can't go out and come get a corporate job right away because I haven't been in that field, although I have the education.00:53:04.134 --> 00:53:07.329


Mine's always been okay.00:53:07.329 --> 00:53:15.992


I know the prison life best, I know who's in prison, I know the barriers of how they got to prison and I know how they'd be successful post-prison.00:53:15.992 --> 00:53:23.610


So I know that that was my role as an individual, my role as a Muslim, my role as a man, my role as an ex-gang member.00:53:23.610 --> 00:53:34.855


Because I know you can't go, you can't take somebody who hasn't lived that experience to talk to them or to talk to me, right, because I wouldn't want to hear it.00:53:34.855 --> 00:53:40.152


But I know that I've so many people I've reached in prison so it wouldn't.00:53:40.152 --> 00:53:48.172


It wouldn't make sense for me to come out now and not go back and be of service, whether it be to the staff or to the inmate population.00:53:48.172 --> 00:53:51.657


That's why I had to go back into the prisons.00:53:52.038 --> 00:53:53.039


I can appreciate that.00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:54.201


I think a really good answer as well.00:53:54.201 --> 00:54:05.045


But I guess, talking about all this stuff and all these experiences that have made you who you are today, how does going back to the crime that you committed?00:54:05.045 --> 00:54:11.507


That was many, many years ago, how does that still affect you today?00:54:11.527 --> 00:54:12.588


does it affect you today.00:54:12.588 --> 00:54:15.574


Yes, talk me through those feelings is.00:54:15.574 --> 00:54:17.559


Is there a trauma response to it?00:54:17.559 --> 00:54:19.467


Do you relive that moment over and over?00:54:19.467 --> 00:54:20.909


How does it?00:54:20.909 --> 00:54:22.469


How do you cope now?00:54:22.469 --> 00:54:26.235


How do you live now after doing what you've, what you had done?00:54:27.817 --> 00:54:31.780


I have to own it, don't make excuses about it.00:54:31.780 --> 00:54:50.019


It's humbled me, it's actually put me in a more humble position, sometimes loud noises, or even if I see an oriental person because the person that I killed was a korean, um being in certain stores, or even getting to a certain level of desperation or stress.00:54:50.019 --> 00:54:58.637


I always remember that, you know, because the duration for me going into the market and running out the market was very small.00:54:58.637 --> 00:55:17.585


But I knew that decision at that time where I was at, what I was relying on, that whole buildup until the gun discharge, until I pulled the trigger in panic, was all because of my inability to handle life, you know.00:55:17.585 --> 00:55:27.713


So, yes, I remember it, because I remember every single day that I spent in prison, in those cells, because you actually ask yourself all the time why are you here?00:55:27.713 --> 00:55:29.389


How did you get here?00:55:29.389 --> 00:55:36.369


Because I had to find those answers, because you asked me earlier how did you cope with being in prison?00:55:37.851 --> 00:55:53.280


I knew that whenever that time came for me to be released, I wasn't going to be the same person and knowing that I took an innocent man's life because of my inability to handle life was not going to happen again.00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:59.409


So it stays in my mind, you know even the circumstances I've experienced in London so far.00:55:59.409 --> 00:56:15.876


My temp is raised, knowing like vividly, from walking in the sound, the court proceedings, the gavel, the jury, that all that's vivid to me, similar to, like me, how I felt when my girl told me my child is dead.00:56:15.876 --> 00:56:23.525


So those traumatic things and their trauma points, you know people talk about trauma, multi-layered trauma.00:56:24.588 --> 00:56:46.009


You know so, but it's these traumatic experiences and feelings and event that actually keeps me on a straightener, because I know everything comes down to choice yeah whether it be a bad choice or a good choice you said about, obviously, the loss of your child and, and you know, going back to to your youth as well, you know particularly good at sports, so you're well educated.00:56:46.009 --> 00:56:50.889


What were the things that drew you into this lifestyle of of committing crime?00:56:50.889 --> 00:57:02.668


Because, as you said, no excuses right, but there's plenty of people out there who have gone through something traumatic, such as losing a child, and they haven't resorted to gun violence and things like that.00:57:02.668 --> 00:57:06.313


So what else was going on in your life building up to that moment?00:57:06.313 --> 00:57:09.318


Was you influenced by gang culture?00:57:09.318 --> 00:57:12.849


How was you initiated into gangs?00:57:12.849 --> 00:57:19.862


How did you go from being this educated, you know, and well-rounded, as you said, like you know athlete, you know promising.00:57:19.862 --> 00:57:22.074


Do you know upcoming athlete to to?00:57:22.094 --> 00:57:24.405


that you know where it started, where the draw was.00:57:24.405 --> 00:57:30.072


I want to do what everybody else were doing, that my parents wouldn't let me the belonging.00:57:30.072 --> 00:57:32.775


I seen all of them.00:57:32.775 --> 00:57:37.266


Now I became a gang member, and that's a tricky phrase.00:57:37.266 --> 00:57:38.931


When did you become a gang member?00:57:38.931 --> 00:57:44.092


I grew up in my neighborhood, so it was a matter of getting jumped in for me.00:57:44.724 --> 00:57:48.855


Not like an initiation phase you go through, you're just around it and kind of gravitate to it.00:57:48.875 --> 00:57:49.965


Yeah, you know.00:57:49.965 --> 00:57:52.253


But the draw was, I want to be like them.00:57:52.253 --> 00:57:57.672


Because them they had, the girls, they had the pretty girls, everybody was around them.00:57:57.672 --> 00:57:59.471


And at that time I didn't have that.00:57:59.471 --> 00:58:02.655


Everything was go to school, be good, wear a uniform.00:58:02.655 --> 00:58:04.972


Everything was structured, sports practice, bam.00:58:04.972 --> 00:58:11.056


But inside, growing up, I was so unfulfilled, didn't know who I was, or struggling to learn who.00:58:11.056 --> 00:58:16.695


I was Excelled in sports, excelled in grades, but it wasn't enough for me.00:58:16.695 --> 00:58:18.369


One, I was the only boy.00:58:18.369 --> 00:58:22.184


Two, I was very dark, right.00:58:22.184 --> 00:58:28.038


So the bullying, the teasing, et cetera, you know the old phrase if you can't beat them, join them.00:58:28.038 --> 00:58:30.771


So it's one of those gradual things.00:58:30.771 --> 00:58:43.735


Because who you grow up, my peers, who I grew up with, we all went to the same elementary, we all played sports in the same park, but these guys' older brothers or whatnot, were actual gang members.00:58:44.485 --> 00:58:45.789


So it's almost like you grow up.00:58:45.789 --> 00:58:46.893


I grew up into it.00:58:46.893 --> 00:59:05.849


So now, rather than pay attention in school or do what my mom said or everything else, I'm ditching school to be like them, still haven't dealt with my own issues about man, who am I or what are my strengths and what are my weaknesses, so I grew up in that lifestyle with them.00:59:05.849 --> 00:59:13.641


It didn't turn criminal per se until like 86, because everything was gradual.00:59:13.641 --> 00:59:21.574


It went from stealing, stealing and sweltering my dad's marijuana joints doing a little bit of the drinking, to now.00:59:21.574 --> 00:59:32.547


The lifestyle of a gang per se is you drink every day, you're a loiter, you do mischief, steal, you fight.00:59:32.547 --> 00:59:37.518


So for me to be a part of this, I also have to participate.00:59:37.518 --> 00:59:41.806


But the funny thing, I was never like that.00:59:41.806 --> 00:59:57.731


Every time I'm around him I'm more timid, I'm like, okay, he's bigger than me, but I had to put on the mask because it did give me some place where I felt that, okay, I got people to like me, I got this by 1987 I was a full-fledged gang member.00:59:57.751 --> 01:00:02.126


So I'm doing everything that a gang member does not.01:00:02.126 --> 01:00:04.889


Just did I say the good things.01:00:04.889 --> 01:00:16.762


It was different in the 80s, but now all the vacancies and voids in me like lack of belonging, I'm masked with drinking and laughing all day.01:00:16.762 --> 01:00:26.338


My grades are declining, but hey, I'm having fun here Learning how to deal with stress getting kicked out of this school because I'm not doing my grades.01:00:26.338 --> 01:00:27.947


My parents are on me.01:00:27.947 --> 01:00:29.110


What do I do?01:00:29.110 --> 01:00:30.474


Go to the neighborhood?01:00:30.474 --> 01:00:31.016


What are we doing?01:00:31.016 --> 01:00:31.717


Drinking more.01:00:32.505 --> 01:00:38.858


So as time goes on, introduction of drugs, guns, now everything is robbing, beating people up.01:00:38.858 --> 01:00:41.994


So I lived the lifestyle.01:00:41.994 --> 01:00:43.672


I became a gang member.01:00:43.672 --> 01:01:05.971


So I was doing everything a gang member did take advantage of the week, shooting at people, pulling guns on people, and actually that's not a good set of coping skills, you say, because for me as a gang member, the coping skills if you don't have money, you go take it, because that's the mentality of a gang member.01:01:05.971 --> 01:01:07.815


Yeah, because, yeah, this is my block.01:01:07.936 --> 01:01:12.847


I'm doesn't matter what I was feeling inside, because I've been shattered for a long time inside, right.01:01:12.847 --> 01:01:23.856


So that's why it's easy that, why at that time, little obstacles were monumental and I took them to heart right when I came out, right before I went to the military.01:01:23.856 --> 01:01:25.985


Uh, my girlfriend was pregnant.01:01:25.985 --> 01:01:28.875


She aborted the pregnancy because I wasn't there.01:01:28.875 --> 01:01:47.355


It wasn't until I was at the parole board where I had to understand what was the connection the emotional connection, the behavioral connection and my reliance on more drugs, more sex, more crime, more and more of everything.01:01:47.355 --> 01:01:48.474


But internally I'm still just cr.01:01:48.474 --> 01:01:50.072


But internally I'm still just crumbling.01:01:50.134 --> 01:01:53.793


Yeah, I'm still crumbling, I might play like I'm okay.01:01:53.793 --> 01:01:57.293


My second child came out.01:01:57.293 --> 01:02:05.492


The military thought that thing was nice and actually that probably was the most traumatic for me because in prison I learned I contributed to that.01:02:05.492 --> 01:02:12.038


My girlfriend hired me to go to a shopping center in my neighborhood.01:02:12.038 --> 01:02:16.596


A couple of my gang friends they beating up some girl in the middle of the street.01:02:16.684 --> 01:02:18.271


I said yeah, baby, go get out and help them.01:02:18.271 --> 01:02:28.757


She got kicked in the stomach, lost my child the same day, and only because I knew, because my mom is an OB-GYN midwife and she told me.01:02:28.757 --> 01:02:33.692


So, learning all these things in prison like damn, but that was in prison.01:02:33.692 --> 01:02:36.010


So the third one.01:02:36.010 --> 01:02:52.681


Now, all these things are happening and my only coping mechanism was drink, smoke, act out so that my course of addiction weed, methamphetamine, cocaine, sherman, all these drugs, they got all type of chemicals.01:02:52.681 --> 01:02:54.106


You know.01:02:54.106 --> 01:02:56.233


So I'm not handling anything.01:02:56.233 --> 01:03:00.494


Well, you know, I wasn't even a good gang member, you know, what I mean.01:03:00.644 --> 01:03:11.425


So when it comes to addiction and the consequences of addiction, I couldn't make a rational choice, even if I wanted to, you know.01:03:11.425 --> 01:03:18.411


So that was very even dealing with it now because I didn't have to go through that.01:03:18.411 --> 01:03:21.653


Came from a good home, good education.01:03:21.653 --> 01:03:24.532


Parents try to make the best way.01:03:24.532 --> 01:03:26.371


That's why I say everything comes down to choice.01:03:26.371 --> 01:03:28.157


Parents try to make the best way.01:03:28.157 --> 01:03:29.965


That's why I say everything comes down to choice.01:03:38.045 --> 01:03:47.818


Because I was so foregone in my addiction that by the time I got out the military I was worse, because now I'm a soldier in my military training I'm more callous, because the military makes you callous.01:03:47.838 --> 01:03:48.784


I was already callous, being a gang member.01:03:48.784 --> 01:03:50.893


So the addiction became worse.01:03:50.893 --> 01:03:54.634


I remember in Calipatria State Prison I went to AA.01:03:54.634 --> 01:03:56.570


I was in AA for 12 years.01:03:56.570 --> 01:04:06.297


First couple of years I'm like, oh yeah, I'm not an addict because I didn't relate to the blackouts, everything that was associated with alcoholism, the blackouts, et cetera, et cetera.01:04:06.297 --> 01:04:06.797


Quick to deny.01:04:06.797 --> 01:04:14.650


You're like I'm not alcoholic, I just drink, never weighing out okay, how much were your losses, why you were in your addiction, what was your thinking?01:04:14.650 --> 01:04:15.635


What was all these things?01:04:15.635 --> 01:04:16.648


And they were all losses.01:04:16.648 --> 01:04:32.887


So, leading up to my crime, I was an addict, probably everything thrill-seeking, ultimately taking a life, just because I couldn't handle my own shit.01:04:32.907 --> 01:04:37.971


So, going up to the date that that happened, my girlfriend told me she lost a child.01:04:37.971 --> 01:04:40.092


I committed contemplated suicide.01:04:40.092 --> 01:04:46.797


Two days later, Sat on my bed naked with a gun, my thing was okay, just blow everything away.01:04:46.797 --> 01:04:49.199


A picture of my mom came to my face.01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:51.963


I shot two rounds into the wall and just left.01:04:51.963 --> 01:04:54.813


Three days later is when the crime happened.01:04:55.626 --> 01:05:01.371


I'm chilling with my gang friends, thinking everything is alright, but inside I'm pretty much imploding.01:05:01.371 --> 01:05:04.431


Lifestyle of a gang member is an opportunist.01:05:04.431 --> 01:05:05.748


It was the 15th.01:05:05.748 --> 01:05:10.635


Everybody get their government checks list, like the UC payments here.01:05:10.635 --> 01:05:15.456


And it's a liquor store right here where we hung out with a laundromat.01:05:16.525 --> 01:05:21.510


So the only thing I was thinking about let's just get high, let's just smoke so you wouldn't feel anymore.01:05:21.510 --> 01:05:23.911


I'm a bunch of feelings.01:05:23.911 --> 01:05:24.346


So the first crime I actually did she said she didn't have any money.01:05:24.346 --> 01:05:25.088


A bunch of feelings.01:05:25.088 --> 01:05:33.391


So the first crime I actually did she said she didn't have any money Because naturally I'm not a criminal, but I became a criminal via a gang member.01:05:33.391 --> 01:05:36.851


So she said she didn't have any money.01:05:36.851 --> 01:05:38.090


So I didn't get what I wanted.01:05:38.090 --> 01:05:58.050


I was still with the friends, I acted like everything's okay, but everything wasn't, because I didn't get my fix to deal with what I was dealing with and I learned that when I learned about denial A criminal, they are going to go through whatever they think until they get it and it doesn't have to be rational.01:05:58.050 --> 01:06:07.094


So I went home that night, put on a hat and my grandmother said don't go out there Because something either looked a certain type of way.01:06:07.094 --> 01:06:10.248


But she said don't go out there and that's the last time she's seen me.01:06:10.909 --> 01:06:25.434


It's like she knew yeah, maybe she, maybe she didn't know, and not necessarily in like this spooky, you know, psychic way, but you know grand grandparents, they, they know shit they've seen shit as well.01:06:25.434 --> 01:06:34.798


They're gonna see things in yourself that they've seen in other people before yeah, desperation is a bitch man exactly going back to, to where we are now.01:06:34.798 --> 01:06:44.012


What does, what does having freedom mean to you now after such a long time with so many restrictions?01:06:48.474 --> 01:06:55.519


Might be a paradox, but freedom is, for me, can't be actually free like that.01:06:55.519 --> 01:07:02.974


Not free in the world sense, because in the world sense it won't be good for me.01:07:03.525 --> 01:07:07.168


Freedom for me means being able to make the right choice, put the right plans, and the fact that I have the best outcome.01:07:07.168 --> 01:07:08.918


That's freedom for me being able to make the right choice, put the right plans in effect, that'll have the best outcome.01:07:08.918 --> 01:07:19.858


That's freedom for me being able to just go outside when I want to go get some ice cream, you know, or if I'm in a situation to where I need money before I just go rob.01:07:19.858 --> 01:07:26.728


Being free now, being free to exercise and use the education I got while in prison and experience and go out there and get it.01:07:26.728 --> 01:07:28.353


That's what freedom allows.01:07:28.353 --> 01:07:31.255


Yeah, the same successes I was having in prison.01:07:31.255 --> 01:07:40.530


Being free in the world just gives me a bigger platform with bigger tools to use bigger stress, of course, you know, but that's what freedom means to me Everything that I couldn't do.01:07:41.425 --> 01:07:44.695


Is there a place where you visit where you feel like you're most free?01:07:44.695 --> 01:07:54.992


I understand that you went to the beach this weekend, like after being in cells and things for so long.01:07:54.992 --> 01:07:55.876


What's it like being in such an open place?01:07:55.876 --> 01:07:57.342


Or is there anywhere else specifically where you do feel you are right?01:07:57.342 --> 01:07:57.684


Yeah, you're most.01:07:57.684 --> 01:07:59.250


Again, I'm going to use the word free, do you know?01:07:59.250 --> 01:08:07.976


I do my music, yeah, so it's like a mental freedom yeah because do you not have like access to things like music and stuff in within prisons?01:08:08.135 --> 01:08:15.443


yeah, yeah, got phones, they have tablets, they have buy cds, but this is a different environment.01:08:15.443 --> 01:08:17.247


You have everything else to worry about.01:08:17.247 --> 01:08:24.886


Yeah, you know, but me, my it's always been my safe place because I grew up in it, since my dad was a dj.01:08:24.886 --> 01:08:25.787


My dad owned a club.01:08:25.787 --> 01:08:35.056


I was a musician, I played in a band One of the best things gifts that God ever gave me but all I did was use down the street to get girls and dumb shit.01:08:35.617 --> 01:08:50.332


I like the answer to that because I think one of the things that I heard before was the biggest prison is the prison of the mind, and it's interesting, after 31 years of being in an actual prison, when I've asked you a question about freedom, you've still gone to something that is a mental state of freedom in music.01:08:50.332 --> 01:08:54.997


I think that's that's a really interesting answer, after such a long time there as well.01:08:54.997 --> 01:09:10.367


Like I thought you was gonna say somewhere like being at a beach or something like that, but no, that's a completely different to what I'd expect no, because I had all of that before, all those things you know going out and going for a walk and all that I gave that up.01:09:11.069 --> 01:09:11.730


I gave that up.01:09:11.730 --> 01:09:21.112


Freedom for me is actually thinking for myself, actually going out and being a man, or learning what a man is and doing it.01:09:21.112 --> 01:09:24.418


You know that's freedom for me, thank you.01:09:24.418 --> 01:09:35.918


Freedom to say no sometimes, yeah, and in prison you can't really say no, so freedom is like no and with no explanation or necessary.01:09:35.958 --> 01:09:45.270


Just the answer is no, and that's something that is all it needs to be, andre, I'm just going to finish with a set of 10 questions that I ask all our guests before we wrap this up.01:09:45.270 --> 01:09:46.354


And do I get money at the end?01:09:46.354 --> 01:09:46.795


Is this a big?01:09:46.795 --> 01:09:47.877


Deal yeah yeah, yeah, absolutely.01:09:47.877 --> 01:09:52.837


That's exactly how it works.01:09:52.837 --> 01:09:54.068


What is your?01:09:54.087 --> 01:09:58.176


favorite word, thank you, least favorite word no.01:10:02.439 --> 01:10:03.243


Tell me something that excites you.01:10:03.264 --> 01:10:05.203


Music Tell me something that doesn't excite you.01:10:05.784 --> 01:10:06.006


Conflict.01:10:06.006 --> 01:10:14.019


What sound or noise do you love Nature?01:10:14.019 --> 01:10:18.104


What sound or noise do you hate?01:10:18.104 --> 01:10:20.194


A woman crying.01:10:21.591 --> 01:10:24.283


What's your favourite swear word?01:10:24.283 --> 01:10:27.152


Fuck?01:10:27.453 --> 01:10:28.855


off which I only bowed at.01:10:28.855 --> 01:10:29.578


No no, that's fine.01:10:29.578 --> 01:10:32.193


What profession would you like to attempt?01:10:35.706 --> 01:10:38.954


What profession would I like to attempt Corporate?01:10:38.975 --> 01:10:41.229


CEO, what profession would you not like to do?01:10:41.229 --> 01:10:43.935


Nine to five?01:10:43.935 --> 01:10:51.190


And then, lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear god say when you arrive at the pearly gates I'm proud of you.01:10:51.190 --> 01:10:53.315


Thank you, andre, you've been wonderful.01:10:53.315 --> 01:10:54.226


Thank you so much for coming on.01:10:54.226 --> 01:10:55.533


The believing people podcast cheers man.01:10:55.734 --> 01:11:02.328


Thank you, I enjoyed that, and if you've enjoyed this episode of the believing people podcast, please check out the other episodes and hit that subscribe button.01:11:02.328 --> 01:11:07.368


We're on apple music and spotify, so please like and subscribe to be notified about our new episodes.01:11:07.368 --> 01:11:15.360


You can also search for the Believe in People podcast on your favourite listening device and if you can leave us a review, that will really help us in getting our message out there and rising up the daily podcast charts.