2024 British Podcast Award Winner & Radio Academy Award Nominated Podcast
Jan. 14, 2025

#59 - Tom Fitzsimons: 3,073 Miles in a 100 Day Ultramarathon Across America, Alcoholism Redemption, National Day of Sobriety, Free Wi-Fi in McDonalds & A Cowboy Pastor on a White Horse

#59 - Tom Fitzsimons: 3,073 Miles in a 100 Day Ultramarathon Across America, Alcoholism Redemption, National Day of Sobriety, Free Wi-Fi in McDonalds & A Cowboy Pastor on a White Horse
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Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
#59 - Tom Fitzsimons: 3,073 Miles in a 100 Day Ultramarathon Across America, Alcoholism Redemption, National Day of Sobriety, Free Wi-Fi in McDonalds & A Cowboy Pastor on a White Horse
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Season 1 Alcohol Stigma Health & Fitness Family Mental Health

Matt sits down with Tom Fitzsimons, an ultramarathon runner whose awe-inspiring story of resilience and recovery has touched lives worldwide. 

From battling stigma and enduring unimaginable physical challenges to running 3,073 miles across the United States in 100 days, Tom shares how running became more than a sport - it became his lifeline and a means to rewrite his identity.

Tom takes us through his remarkable journey, beginning with his struggles with alcohol addiction and a life-changing realisation that running could be his path to freedom. 

Tom recounts harrowing yet heartfelt moments, including training for the Marathon des Sables by running in front of his fireplace and navigating the loneliest road in America with nothing but faith, grit, and a dodgy knee. 

His journey is punctuated by surreal encounters with strangers, like a Harley-Davidson rider who reminded him to focus on necessities and a cowboy pastor offering a prayer in the desert. Through his candid storytelling, Tom sheds light on the emotional toll of addiction, the power of community, and the importance of addressing trauma as a society.

This episode is a powerful testament to the human spirit, highlighting how one man turned his pain into purpose. Whether he’s challenging the stigma surrounding addiction or advocating for a National Sobriety Day, Tom’s story is a call to action for empathy, understanding, and resilience.

Click here to text our host, Matt, directly!


Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma.

For our full back catalogue you can visit our website ⬇️

www.believeinpeoplepodcast.com

If you or someone you know is struggling then this series can help.

You can see selected clips from the series on social media: @CGLHull ⬇️

Facebook | Twitter | Instagram

We'd like to extend our heartfelt thanks to Christopher Tait of the band Belle Ghoul & Electric Six for allowing us to use the track Jonathan Tortoise. Thank you, Chris, for being a part of this journey with us.

Chapters

00:00 - Tom Fitzsimons

12:29 - Training for Run Across USA

22:49 - The Journey of Addiction and Recovery

32:25 - The Power of Solitude and Redemption

47:26 - Stories of Hope and Recovery

50:54 - National Day of Sobriety

55:43 - The Impact of Trauma and Environment

01:10:09 - Running Across America

Transcript
WEBVTT

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This is a Renew Original Recording.

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Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a British podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma.

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My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or, as I like to say, your facilitator.

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Today's guest is Tom Fitzsimons, an ultramarathon runner who achieved the extraordinary feat of running 3,073 miles across the United States in just 100 days.

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But this story is much more than physical endurance.

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It's a testament to resilience, recovery and transformation.

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Tom's journey from battling addiction to conquering some of the world's toughest endurance challenges highlights the profound impact of determination and personal growth Along the way he uses experiences to challenge stigma, inspire change and reshape how we think about addiction and recovery.

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I begin our conversation by asking Tom about the moment he realised running could help him break free from addiction and change his life.

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Running was the only option I had in my early days of recovery.

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So 2007, alcohol services weren't the best.

00:01:06.974 --> 00:01:09.746
Back then I went to my doctor and asked for some help.

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I had a problem with alcohol for a long, long time and he looked at me and laughed.

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He went don't be stupid, tom, you're Irish, it's just what you do.

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So I decided to do what I tell everyone not to do.

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I went cold turkey and somebody had mentioned to me that this thing called running might help with my addiction.

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You know, it helps with depression, it helps with anxiety and apparently it would help us with my addiction.

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And I was like 21 stone at the time.

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There's no, no way I could run.

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You know what I mean?

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Not a chance now.

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So I went out and ran half an hour, half a mile it was absolutely rubbish Came back home, vomited all over the bathroom and so on.

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Never got to run again.

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But something changed that night.

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It was something that I didn't realise how powerful it was going to be.

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I got a sudden feeling inside my stomach and I hadn't had that feeling for a long, long time, and that feeling was what I now know as happiness and that was going to allow me to run the next day, and then the next day and within six weeks, I'd run a 10K.

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Three months, I'd run a 10k.

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Three months to run a half marathon.

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Um, and I thought you know what this is it?

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I've cracked it.

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No, this alcoholics anonymous for me.

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I could.

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I didn't have to go stop drinking, all I had to do was run.

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So run six miles, drink six pints, run eight miles, eight pints.

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Half marathon, happy days, um, I finally realised that I couldn't do both.

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I had to stop completely, go through it all again the cold, turkey, the pee, the poo, the vomit, the shakes, the shivers, the sweats and get to a point where running became my vehicle for change, and that was 2007, 2008.

00:03:07.209 --> 00:03:18.329
I started to think about marathons and and did a couple of marathons and people were impressed, people liked it, and I thought to myself do you know what?

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Well, maybe I can change perceptions, people's perceptions of who I am as a person, because I was always known as tom the guy who likes a drink and then, all of a sudden, I was starting to be tom the runner.

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So my identity was changing and I think to myself well, if, if I can change my identity just by running, then then we can change perceptions of what people like me are, the perceptions of an alcoholic.

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What does an alcoholic look like?

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So I started running further and further.

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I heard about these fantastic things called ultramarathons.

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I was like you know what are you talking about?

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An ultramarathon, a marathon, was as far as you could go.

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But there's this group of crazy people who run further than 26.2 miles.

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You know, they run 30 miles, they run 35 miles, 40 miles, 50 miles, some of them even 100 miles in a day.

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And I'm thinking maybe I could do this, maybe that would get more people to be to buy into what we're capable of.

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And I saw there was a race.

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It was a race across the Sahara Desert called the Marathon de Sables and it's classed as the toughest foot race on earth 155 miles through the Sahara Desert, carrying your own backpack.

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And I signed up for it and people were like you can't do this, tom.

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You've only been running for three years.

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You know this is something you build a lifetime to.

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I didn't have a lifetime.

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I'd wasted a lifetime and wasted an entire lifetime.

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So I knew I didn't have that amount of time to practice and train and so I signed up for it and people laughed and I eventually you know, they laughed at me as I'm training up and down the streets of Wakefield for the hottest desert and, uh in the world, um, in the worst winter we'd ever.

00:05:09.740 --> 00:05:09.982
Had.

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Back in 2009, 2010, I managed to get to a point where I felt comfortable and confident about doing the race and I arrived on the start in April 2010.

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Um, before that, I was Tomford Simons, the drunk, the domestic abuser, the drink driver, the waste of a life.

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And seven days later, on, 155 miles further through the desert, I was Tomford Simons, the finisher of the toughest foot race on earth.

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Now, for me, that was, that was the pinnacle of of of what life was going to be like, and I was quite happy with that being that pinnacle of success for me.

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But I didn't want to be one of those people that was walking around saying to young students, because I was speaking in schools at that stage you know, you've got great potential.

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When I hadn't fulfilled my own, I knew there was something else.

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There was another part of me that could do more, be more, achieve more.

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And I was watching Red Bull Stratos a lad called Felix Baumgartner who was jumping out of a balloon I don't know if you remember this one, the Red Bull Stratos, like, called Felix Baumgartner, who was jumping out of a balloon, and if you remember this one, the Red Bull Stratos.

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He jumped out of a balloon from the edge of space and as he got to the edge of space he looked out from from the capsule.

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He says sometimes you have to come up really high to see how small you are.

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Well, I already knew how small I was.

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I'd always been small but it sparked something in me to go I don't want to be small anymore, I want to do something spectacular.

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It was in that moment that I thought well, do you know what?

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I can?

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Run across the United States of America, do a Forrest Gump, you know.

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Get out there and do something spectacular.

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Show people that I'm not small.

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Show people, if you take your opportunities, you can achieve anything.

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And that was really the first point in which I thought about running across the United States of America.

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So that was where we I say we, it's the royal way, it's my family that's where we started to come up with a plan.

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Okay, it's okay saying this, but how do you actually do it?

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How do you actually plan to run across the United States of America, and that's where the fun began.

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United States of America, and that's where the fun began.

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For me, it was again.

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When you start talking about these things, you start thinking right, I need sponsors, I need, I need finance, I need to try and organize things and I need to tell my wife that I'm thinking about doing this now.

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That's a conversation itself.

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You know, it's okay saying you're going to run across the Sahara Desert, um, you know, and that was that was met with a little bit of you know, eyes rolled to the back of their head, um, but when you're going to run across a continent, that's a different conversation.

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You know, that's a that's a difficult one to broach, but with everything I do and this is really important for people out there who are trying to navigate their way through any addiction For me, my partner didn't judge.

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Zoe doesn't judge.

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Everybody needs a Zoe in their life.

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She listened, she put a very practical spin on it how we're going to pay for it, when are you going to do it but she never once said no.

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I've been told no all my life, um, and so he never says no.

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She supports everything I do.

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So for me, that was the go-ahead.

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Go and find a sponsor.

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Go and find a way to do this.

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Figure out how you're going to get to a point where you can actually stand on the start line of the Martin DeSables or, sorry, of America and run across a continent.

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So the sponsorship was just how do you find a sponsor to run across America?

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You know that's.

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Because if you go to someone and tell them this is your plan, like how many people are actually going to take that seriously?

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Exactly, and I think so.

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For me there was a.

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I'd spoken at a conference in Berlin of actually going to take that seriously Exactly, and I think so for me.

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I'd spoken at a conference in Berlin for a big company and the management director came up to me at the end of the conference and he says he gave me his business card.

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He says if there's ever anything you need, give me a call or send me an email.

00:10:03.928 --> 00:10:09.807
Now I don't know if you've ever had that from somebody and you know they have no intention of helping you.

00:10:09.807 --> 00:10:12.501
Yeah, you know that's never the actual intention.

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Just make the fuller shit and just trying to yeah their intention is to make themselves look good for a minute, um, and make you feel good about yourself like you've done a really good job at the conference, yeah, and then they put the card in your pocket and you forget about the card and it's done.

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Well, he was the most at the time, he was probably the most influential person I knew, the person who had access to funds and had done loads of other stuff that I thought I'm going to send him an email.

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I don't name this guy at all, don't name the company, because they wanted it completely anonymously, and I sent him an email expecting, you know, to hear nothing back.

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My name's Tom.

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You know we met at a conference in Berlin.

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You said, if I needed anything, well, I'd like to run across the United States of America, sent the email expecting never to hear back from him, and that was on the Saturday, and he emailed me back on the Monday morning.

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In principle, tom, we're on, we're going to get this done.

00:11:15.306 --> 00:11:20.486
So that's when the butterflies start coming in.

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You know, somebody's called you bluff here, tom, somebody's called you bluff.

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Here are you gonna have to do it now somebody's called bluff and as an addict, I've always been a bullshitter.

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Now that's you know, that's been, that's, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that.

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Then somebody actually says to you I believe you can.

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I'd never had that, apart from my wife.

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I'd never had somebody else backing me, somebody else saying you're good enough to do this.

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My entire life had been a complete shambles of people, of me trying to do things and be something.

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And you know, my career in the construction industry, utility industry, was all about trying to be something better, trying to, you know, climb the corporate ladder.

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And even though I was an alcoholic, I still climbed that corporate ladder.

00:12:12.730 --> 00:12:18.030
But people really didn't believe that I could do what I said I could do.

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So to have this sponsor sitting by and going okay, tom, we're on, we can do this, we can give you a pot of money, we can get this sorted.

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So then the next thing is when are you going to do it?

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You know it's okay saying you're going to do it, but how long does it take to train for a run across the United States of America?

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Most people will go two or three years' time and, like I said earlier on, I'd wasted a lifetime.

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I didn't have that time.

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So this was October and I planned it six months.

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I gave myself six months of preparation to run 3,100 miles across the continent, which, with hindsight, when I'm looking back on it now, I'm thinking to myself what were you thinking?

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Anybody who's in recovery will probably say and I don't know if you agree with this but we tend to be chasing missed opportunities.

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We tend to be trying to grab back time.

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We've wasted so much time.

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I'd wasted 20 years of my life.

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I had my first drink at 13 years of age and from 13 to 33 I destroyed myself.

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So I didn't have the time.

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I felt I didn't have the time.

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A game of hindsight.

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I look back and go yeah, you had that.

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You did have the time to, but I'm pleased I didn't wait.

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Because what you find with people who wait?

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They find excuses, you know, they find reasons not to.

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They find injuries, they find family life gets in the way.

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How many people have you heard in recovery have gone.

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I'm not ready yet.

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Now is not the time.

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I have to wait for the stars to align and and everything to be perfect.

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Alignment there, you know, the planets have to be right, everything, the weather has to be right every excuse under the sun to not do something, and I didn't have the time for that anymore.

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I was so impatient with, and frustrated with myself with, how many wasted chances I'd had.

00:14:32.850 --> 00:14:46.922
Um, so I gave myself six months and started to put the hammer down and trying to get myself into a position where, um, I could actually do this thing and what was the training for that like then?

00:14:46.961 --> 00:14:48.405
how does that look practically?

00:14:48.405 --> 00:14:50.730
I mean, is it x amount of miles per day?

00:14:50.730 --> 00:14:51.812
How do you?

00:14:51.812 --> 00:14:55.490
How do you, how do you, where do you even start, so um for me.

00:14:55.792 --> 00:14:58.841
Um, I use the old adage of my drinking days.

00:14:58.841 --> 00:15:03.280
So my drinking days was not how many pints I could drink in a day, it was how many days I could do it for.

00:15:03.280 --> 00:15:07.809
Okay, and that was the way my mind worked and I transferred that into my running.

00:15:07.809 --> 00:15:11.524
It wasn't how many miles I could do in a day, it's how many days I could do it for.

00:15:11.524 --> 00:15:16.802
Um, and and it was a more positive way of of having that, that mindset.

00:15:16.802 --> 00:15:22.371
Um, so for the training, I was already fit to 20, 2010.

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Did the marathon disables?

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Kept on running.

00:15:24.481 --> 00:15:25.168
After the mds few marathons.

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After the MDS, a few marathons.

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I was doing about 10 or 11 marathons a year.

00:15:28.442 --> 00:15:32.644
You know, every year from my recovery.

00:15:34.001 --> 00:15:38.342
I just want to, because the thing is, some people run a marathon and that's their crowning achievement of their life.

00:15:38.342 --> 00:15:43.365
Is they run a marathon and you're saying you've done 10 to 11 a year like it's nothing.

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You know, it's just another weekend for you.

00:15:45.768 --> 00:15:48.432
Do you know a monthly activity that you partake?

00:15:48.513 --> 00:15:48.592
in.

00:15:48.592 --> 00:15:49.135
Yeah, it was.

00:15:49.135 --> 00:15:49.899
That's incredible.

00:15:49.899 --> 00:15:57.453
It became that sort of a mindset of I had so much time to catch up on.

00:15:57.453 --> 00:16:06.413
I tried to squeeze 20 years of youth into as quick, quick a space as I could know that was.

00:16:06.413 --> 00:16:09.496
That would backfire on me later on because my knees and things that.

00:16:09.557 --> 00:16:14.763
But I tried to make sure that I didn't want people to think I was just gonna be a one-trick pony.

00:16:14.763 --> 00:16:17.092
Hmm, didn't want people to go.

00:16:17.092 --> 00:16:18.258
Oh yeah, here we go.

00:16:18.258 --> 00:16:20.083
You said you're gonna become a runner and you didn't.

00:16:20.083 --> 00:16:30.591
He did one marathon and that was it and I always remember I went to a talk a guy called Simon Hartley who is a sports psychologist he was talking to.

00:16:30.591 --> 00:16:38.668
A guy wrote a book about the all blacks and the all blacks is the worst thing about, the worst type of all black, is having one cap.

00:16:38.668 --> 00:16:44.644
Yeah, nobody wants to be that all black that only gets one cap.

00:16:44.644 --> 00:16:46.407
You know what I mean.

00:16:46.407 --> 00:16:58.705
That means you've represented the all blacks and they didn't like you or you didn't do what you said you were going to do, or you didn't do what you say you were going to do.

00:16:58.745 --> 00:17:06.311
And for me, that was something I kept in the back of my head all the time I wanted to keep on pushing, I wanted to catch that time.

00:17:06.311 --> 00:17:08.593
So, yeah, I was doing regular marathons.

00:17:08.593 --> 00:17:12.777
I was out towards the marathon, the Marathon de Sables.

00:17:12.777 --> 00:17:17.759
I was doing a 10K in front of the fire on a morning to try and get some heat training.

00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:23.170
I couldn't afford Tenerife and then 15, 16 miles on a night time.

00:17:23.170 --> 00:17:27.171
So that was the training for the MDS For the run across America.

00:17:27.171 --> 00:17:35.369
I realised quite quickly there was no way I could replicate the amount of mileage I was going to have to do without getting injured.

00:17:35.369 --> 00:17:42.650
So I was doing about 150 miles a week, which when you break that down, that's a lot of mileage every week.

00:17:42.650 --> 00:17:48.211
But when I was going to America it was going to be 210 miles a week every week.

00:17:48.230 --> 00:17:49.032
That's a big difference.

00:17:49.032 --> 00:17:52.269
So there is, it might not sound like much, but it is a big difference, isn't it?

00:17:52.390 --> 00:17:52.549
Yeah.

00:17:52.549 --> 00:17:54.326
So I took a different stance on it.

00:17:54.326 --> 00:18:14.182
I said, right, okay, I'm going to get myself into a position where I can comfortably run 150 miles a week and make sure that I, by the time I get to America, used to force two or three weeks to run into the race or run into the run, get myself fitter as as I got there.

00:18:14.182 --> 00:18:19.612
But 150 miles a week takes on doing.

00:18:19.612 --> 00:18:28.339
Hmm, you know, you've got all the things to think about you at the planning of the race or the run, at the planning of how we're going to pay my mortgage.

00:18:28.339 --> 00:18:30.259
A lot of people do these challenges.

00:18:30.259 --> 00:18:33.104
There's a lot of people out there doing challenges, celebrity challenges.

00:18:33.224 --> 00:18:40.760
They don't need to worry about all that stuff, they don't have to worry about paying their mortgage they don't have to worry about paying for hotels or anything like that.

00:18:40.780 --> 00:18:46.704
They literally have to just go and run or go and cycle and they've got a sports masseuse.

00:18:46.704 --> 00:18:48.366
They've got hotels paid for.

00:18:48.366 --> 00:18:49.607
Everything's sorted out.

00:18:49.607 --> 00:18:52.471
The communications are all done, Everything's done.

00:18:52.511 --> 00:18:54.093
Separated from reality a lot.

00:18:54.093 --> 00:18:57.057
I saw an interview recently with Mariah Carey and they're talking about electricity.

00:18:57.057 --> 00:18:59.729
She didn't know people paid for electricity Do you know what I mean.

00:18:59.729 --> 00:19:03.907
The disparities between your life and ours is just, it's huge yeah.

00:19:04.269 --> 00:19:12.625
It is huge and I think, when you look at these challenges that people do and there are some really famous people doing some really great work, raising lots of money for charity.

00:19:12.625 --> 00:19:17.526
But the hard part for me wasn't the running, it was the actual organising.

00:19:17.526 --> 00:19:32.747
It was working with my wife to make sure we had a route planned, make sure we had enough food, make sure we had a car available, make sure we had enough food, make sure we had a car available, make sure the flights were booked, doing everything at wrong, but then also, when I was away, making sure that my partner wasn't going to lose the house.

00:19:32.747 --> 00:19:36.742
So all those things had to be planned for.

00:19:36.742 --> 00:19:41.445
So the running I got to about 150 miles away and then I had to back off a little bit.

00:19:41.445 --> 00:19:43.786
I thought, right, you know, there's things going wrong here.

00:19:45.259 --> 00:19:45.682
My knee was sore.

00:19:45.682 --> 00:19:47.170
I was going to say where's the recovery time?

00:19:47.170 --> 00:19:47.592
There wasn't any.

00:19:47.592 --> 00:19:50.365
Exactly, there wasn't any recovery time, and it's so important, isn't it?

00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:52.728
So for me, you know, the knee went.

00:19:52.728 --> 00:19:54.185
I had a torn cartilage in my knee.

00:19:54.185 --> 00:20:02.751
I had no chance of getting surgery before I went Again.

00:20:02.751 --> 00:20:06.976
If you're back on the road in six to eight weeks, there was no time for that.

00:20:06.976 --> 00:20:22.603
The NHS don't work that way, so I had to just get a cortisone injection in my knee and accept that I was going to have to run 3,100 miles in a little bit of pain, just a little bit, a little bit of pain.

00:20:22.603 --> 00:20:24.755
But here's the thing Running across America in a little bit of pain, just a little bit, a little bit of pain.

00:20:24.755 --> 00:20:34.643
But here's the thing, um, running across america, a little bit of pain is is it's not as bad as living in pain that I was in my head when it came to my addiction.

00:20:35.826 --> 00:20:55.711
You know, waking up every day not knowing whether you're going to be able to survive the day without destroying yourself, um, and I think when people talk about pain, the life of an addict is the most, in my opinion, is the most painful thing you'll ever go through.

00:20:55.711 --> 00:20:59.069
But I don't think you know you're in pain until you come out of it.

00:20:59.069 --> 00:21:01.746
You know, I think that's the thing.

00:21:01.746 --> 00:21:02.939
You don't know you're in pain.

00:21:02.939 --> 00:21:10.146
You don't realize that there's that much chaos in your life until you step away from it.

00:21:11.161 --> 00:21:14.130
When I look back on it, knee pain was the least of my worries.

00:21:14.130 --> 00:21:19.390
You know that to me was something that was.

00:21:19.390 --> 00:21:21.086
I wore it almost as a badge of honor.

00:21:21.086 --> 00:21:23.747
You know, pain in my knee was going to remind me that.

00:21:23.747 --> 00:21:24.210
Do you know what, tom?

00:21:24.210 --> 00:21:24.349
You're?

00:21:24.349 --> 00:21:25.859
Pain in my knee was going to remind me that you know what, tom.

00:21:25.859 --> 00:21:27.226
You're doing this for the right reasons.

00:21:27.226 --> 00:21:29.507
You're doing this for those who can't.

00:21:29.507 --> 00:21:37.209
You're doing this for the guy who's still laying on a sofa obliterated in drink.

00:21:37.209 --> 00:21:40.829
You're doing it for the heroin addict on the street.

00:21:40.829 --> 00:21:43.468
You're doing it for the person who's smoking crack can't get through the day.

00:21:43.468 --> 00:21:45.500
You're doing it for the person who's smoking crack can't get through the day.

00:21:46.502 --> 00:22:13.255
You're doing it for the person who's been wounded as a child and for me that was so important to remember why I was doing it we talk a lot about the addicts mentality and it's something that can be said to people who are still in addiction that if you put that addict's mentality to good use you'd achieve great things.

00:22:13.255 --> 00:22:27.896
And I think what I'm kind of seeing and correct me if I'm wrong but the idea of being addicted to alcohol, it's almost like you know people say cross addiction as a very negative thing, but it's almost like you became addicted to running.

00:22:27.896 --> 00:22:29.765
Would you agree with that at all?

00:22:29.765 --> 00:22:32.670
Did that become like the vice that you replaced alcohol with?

00:22:33.101 --> 00:22:34.867
It's always a conversation that comes up.

00:22:34.867 --> 00:22:44.032
It's a valid conversation and the way I always answer this is running was constructive.

00:22:44.032 --> 00:22:44.653
Yeah.

00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:49.902
It rebuilt my life.

00:22:49.902 --> 00:22:50.462
Addiction is destructive.

00:22:50.462 --> 00:22:57.865
You know when you're addicted to something, and if we take the purest form of addiction, it usually destroys your life.

00:22:57.865 --> 00:23:04.481
There's very few people who are addicted to something where it constructs, so for me it it was constructing my life.

00:23:04.481 --> 00:23:23.530
There was elements of it that probably were on the verges of addiction, like running through knee pain, but I had a reason for that and that was almost my penance for 20 years of addiction.

00:23:23.530 --> 00:23:26.192
You're going to suffer a little bit as well, tom.

00:23:26.192 --> 00:23:28.512
It's no good if it's easy.

00:23:28.512 --> 00:23:29.753
You know what I mean.

00:23:29.753 --> 00:23:31.315
If you're going into this, it's going to be easy.

00:23:31.315 --> 00:23:39.137
So the argument about it being an addiction for me, I always say, yeah, I can see where that comes from, but for me it was constructive.

00:23:39.137 --> 00:23:46.705
It remained constructive for a long period of time and when it stopped being constructive I stopped it, and I think that was the thing.

00:23:46.705 --> 00:23:48.346
It was fairly easy to stop.

00:23:48.346 --> 00:23:51.409
It wasn't something I would continue to do.

00:23:52.861 --> 00:23:58.946
What about the now, now, now, mentality in the sense of that's one thing that we sometimes see is within an addict.

00:23:58.946 --> 00:23:59.648
It needs to happen.

00:23:59.648 --> 00:24:00.451
It needs to happen now.

00:24:00.451 --> 00:24:03.490
You're saying that's something that should have taken a lifetime to achieve.

00:24:03.490 --> 00:24:06.448
You did it in your training for six months.

00:24:06.448 --> 00:24:11.962
Would you agree that that now, now, now, mentality was a positive in your training?

00:24:12.083 --> 00:24:13.086
100.

00:24:13.086 --> 00:24:15.933
For me it's, and I understand people who have that now.

00:24:15.933 --> 00:24:23.651
Now, yeah, um, because there are so many um wasted opportunities throughout your addiction.

00:24:23.651 --> 00:24:43.530
You know, as I've said, I worked in the utility industry and I probably should have been a managing director by now, 50 years of age, had I taken the opportunities I was supposed to, if I hadn't been so caught up in drink or drink, I probably would have been more successful.

00:24:43.530 --> 00:24:53.971
So there is an element of you've got to do everything today because you don't know what tomorrow's going to bring.

00:24:53.971 --> 00:24:54.311
Yeah.

00:24:55.019 --> 00:25:03.528
And I think that's the bit that unless you've been in addiction, in active addiction you don't really get that bit because tomorrow's not guaranteed.

00:25:03.528 --> 00:25:14.432
I think that's the bit for me that was so important that at any stage of my recovery I could mess up any stage of my recovery.

00:25:14.432 --> 00:25:19.050
The grace that I've been granted could be taken back.

00:25:19.050 --> 00:25:20.723
So it had to be.

00:25:20.723 --> 00:25:22.645
For me it was the now, now.

00:25:22.645 --> 00:25:26.371
Now mentality is still something I have.

00:25:26.371 --> 00:25:34.969
I have to look at myself and my role and work and make sure I don't push that on others, because it's not always great for people.

00:25:34.969 --> 00:25:37.848
Some things you do need to take your time with.

00:25:37.848 --> 00:25:40.709
Some things you do need to step back and go.

00:25:40.709 --> 00:25:42.165
You know this needs more time.

00:25:42.165 --> 00:25:43.585
This isn't ready.

00:25:43.585 --> 00:25:47.729
I didn't have that in me at the time.

00:25:47.729 --> 00:25:49.284
I couldn't wait.

00:25:49.284 --> 00:25:50.568
Of course it had to be done.

00:25:50.709 --> 00:25:53.307
Yeah, so you did the 3,100 miles.

00:25:53.307 --> 00:25:54.289
How long did it take then?

00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:59.451
So, I arrived on the start line on May 20th 2013.

00:25:59.451 --> 00:26:09.190
And I'd given myself 100 days, 30 miles a day, and planned to finish on August 27, 2013.

00:26:09.369 --> 00:26:10.651
Isn't that a marathon a day then?

00:26:10.651 --> 00:26:13.974
More than a marathon a day, 30 miles a day for a hundred days.

00:26:13.974 --> 00:26:16.596
I just made a comment earlier about doing, you know, 10 to 11 a month now.

00:26:16.678 --> 00:26:19.748
Yeah, so the stats are pretty crazy.

00:26:19.748 --> 00:26:24.667
So if you do the stats, I had five days off because because it's five.

00:26:24.667 --> 00:26:27.545
If you do the stats, I had five days off because five days I think was generous enough.

00:26:27.545 --> 00:26:29.666
Five days and 100 days.

00:26:29.666 --> 00:26:33.980
So I did 122 marathons and 95 days of running Fucking hell.

00:26:33.980 --> 00:26:35.606
That's what it equates to.

00:26:35.881 --> 00:26:40.366
It's hurting my head just thinking about the physical toll that that would have on the human body.

00:26:40.840 --> 00:26:41.080
It was.

00:26:41.080 --> 00:26:45.810
It's when you look, but when I back on it, I I.

00:26:45.810 --> 00:26:48.544
It's taken me a long time to look back on it and go do you know what?

00:26:48.544 --> 00:26:48.765
That was?

00:26:48.765 --> 00:26:49.586
Absolutely phenomenal.

00:26:49.586 --> 00:26:51.502
I couldn't even run for a fucking bus do you know what I mean.

00:26:51.542 --> 00:26:53.008
I'm probably just waiting for the next one.

00:26:53.008 --> 00:26:53.710
I'm the same now.

00:26:53.750 --> 00:27:15.826
I can run a bath now, um yeah, it literally is, it's um, but when I look back on it, it was um something that I had in my head that if you planned it correctly, if you thought about it correctly, then 30 miles a day is doable, and it was, it was doable.

00:27:15.846 --> 00:27:17.709
Just go show the difference in our mentality there.

00:27:17.709 --> 00:27:21.034
Though You're saying that's doable, I'm just like not a chance.

00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:32.253
Yeah, I think when you've had experience of running those distances and you research it and you speak to the people who have done things like this before.

00:27:32.253 --> 00:27:33.963
It's a lot called rory coleman.

00:27:33.963 --> 00:27:36.528
I spent a lot of time talking to rory.

00:27:36.528 --> 00:27:39.342
Uh, rory coleman ran from london to lisbon.

00:27:39.342 --> 00:27:47.434
Um, he said he spoke to you know, spoke to the guys who had done these sorts of things and it's a mindset of it's your job.

00:27:47.434 --> 00:27:49.306
That's what you do every day.

00:27:49.306 --> 00:27:51.587
You get up, you put your running kit on, you go and run.

00:27:51.587 --> 00:27:53.846
You don't have to worry about anything else, you just run.

00:27:55.681 --> 00:27:57.488
But it doesn't stop you questioning things.

00:27:57.488 --> 00:28:05.907
So, you know, I ran through California, got into Nevada and we hit the longest road.

00:28:05.907 --> 00:28:16.601
So Nevada is the Highway 50 we chose and the reason I chose the Highway 50, so, soon after leaving California, san Francisco, you know.

00:28:16.601 --> 00:28:20.859
First of all, when I left San Francisco, I was lost after six miles.

00:28:20.859 --> 00:28:22.345
I forgot to mention that bit.

00:28:22.345 --> 00:28:24.029
You know, completely lost.

00:28:24.029 --> 00:28:35.713
You know where all these maps done on electronic devices then realized they didn't have any access to, like you know, wi-fi or data or anything like that, because things have changed, even since 2013.

00:28:35.713 --> 00:28:38.041
Data's so much more widely available.

00:28:38.041 --> 00:28:40.873
The phone that I had didn't have have any data on it.

00:28:40.873 --> 00:28:44.352
It was a nightmare we had to have wi-fi connection to get the maps.

00:28:44.835 --> 00:28:49.188
The little laptop we had was rubbish can you see you're running now with a sheet of paper.

00:28:49.188 --> 00:28:52.320
I've got it tattooed in the back of the arm.

00:28:52.361 --> 00:28:57.732
Now east east, just move east, and that was a that was a conscious decision.

00:28:57.732 --> 00:29:01.385
So, and again, it's a great metaphor for for addiction.

00:29:01.385 --> 00:29:02.567
There are times.

00:29:02.567 --> 00:29:06.714
So I knew that if I moved east I would get to where I needed to be.

00:29:06.714 --> 00:29:15.785
There are some times you have to go north, sometimes you have to go south, sometimes you have to retrace your steps.

00:29:15.785 --> 00:29:18.231
You know relapse.

00:29:18.231 --> 00:29:21.009
Sometimes you have to go back, start again.

00:29:21.009 --> 00:29:24.667
You never have to go back right to the start.

00:29:24.667 --> 00:29:28.305
You have to maybe retrace your steps a little bit.

00:29:28.305 --> 00:29:32.359
But if you head east and you pick that direction, you'll get to your destination.

00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:34.684
So I realized that fairly quickly.

00:29:34.684 --> 00:29:40.145
So, in a petrol station, by a map and just find the road that took me east, and we just followed it.

00:29:40.145 --> 00:29:47.528
Now we knew we had to go on the highway 50, which was the loneliest road in America, and the reason we chose that was.

00:29:48.001 --> 00:30:03.747
By the time you leave California anyone who's in addiction and going into recovery will know this you have two weeks and everyone thinks you're brilliant, oh, you've sobered up, phenomenal, oh, you've stopped taking drugs, that's great, so proud of you.

00:30:03.747 --> 00:30:09.980
And then two weeks later, they get on with their life and you're sat there like what about me?

00:30:09.980 --> 00:30:16.880
Everyone's forgot about me and I knew that that's how America was going to go.

00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:19.398
I left San Francisco, went through California.

00:30:19.398 --> 00:30:22.595
All the Facebook messages were coming in Phenomenal, tom, it's great.

00:30:22.595 --> 00:30:23.178
Blah, blah, blah.

00:30:23.178 --> 00:30:30.740
And then, by the time I hit, nevada stopped that messaging has all stopped because people go back to their jobs.

00:30:30.740 --> 00:30:41.289
They go back to their jobs, they go back to their, their day-to-day lives and they forget about what you're going through.

00:30:44.650 --> 00:30:47.453
So the highway 50 was my way of saying it's a lonely road time magazine described as the loneliest road in america.

00:30:47.453 --> 00:30:54.704
There's four towns in 450 miles through the Great Basin, 16 mountain passes, all above 7,000 feet.

00:30:54.704 --> 00:31:01.160
So you've got altitude to deal with, you've got 40 degree heat and you've got complete isolation.

00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:05.496
And I'm on that road and I'm thinking what am I doing?

00:31:05.496 --> 00:31:11.798
And I have great faith and I prayed every day.

00:31:11.798 --> 00:31:17.695
And the good thing about praying in the desert is you can pray like I'm talking to you now.

00:31:17.695 --> 00:31:20.017
You know you can just go hey God, how you doing?

00:31:20.017 --> 00:31:23.256
Because everyone knows God's from Yorkshire Just like hey, god, how you doing?

00:31:23.256 --> 00:31:25.316
And have a bit of crack with God.

00:31:25.356 --> 00:31:29.596
Now, then Now then, hey all right, have a bit of crack with him.

00:31:29.596 --> 00:31:32.186
And this one particular day I'm thinking to myself do you know what?

00:31:32.186 --> 00:31:32.729
I've had enough of this.

00:31:32.729 --> 00:31:34.054
This is doing my head in.

00:31:34.054 --> 00:31:36.692
I've got sore knees, I've got sunburned.

00:31:36.692 --> 00:31:39.039
The day before I miss my family.

00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:41.776
I was just really annoyed.

00:31:41.776 --> 00:31:42.798
It was red hot.

00:31:43.950 --> 00:31:46.038
So as I'm running down the road, I turn around and I went right.

00:31:46.038 --> 00:31:50.884
Okay, I don't know what you've got planned for me, god, but have I not suffered enough?

00:31:50.884 --> 00:31:53.866
You know, I've sobered up.

00:31:53.866 --> 00:31:56.378
I've run across the Sahara Desert for you.

00:31:56.378 --> 00:31:59.659
I've spoke to hundreds of thousands of kids.

00:31:59.659 --> 00:32:00.955
I've done all this sort of stuff.

00:32:00.955 --> 00:32:05.099
I preach about sobriety to everyone I meet.

00:32:05.099 --> 00:32:07.075
Have I not suffered enough?

00:32:07.075 --> 00:32:19.037
And, of course, anyone who's praised the God knows he doesn't answer you and I'm thinking okay, right, whatever you've got planned for me, I trust you.

00:32:19.037 --> 00:32:20.582
I've got faith.

00:32:20.582 --> 00:32:24.358
I said my enemy prayers and moved on.

00:32:25.589 --> 00:32:30.402
And as I'm moving on, a motorbike came up, harley-davidson rider.

00:32:30.402 --> 00:32:36.215
Now, I'm not going to do the accent for the Harley Davidson rider because I'm rubbish at American accents, so we'll pretend he was a Yorkshire.

00:32:36.215 --> 00:32:38.615
He got off the bike and went hey, how are you doing?

00:32:38.615 --> 00:32:44.053
He got off the motorbike and he went how are you doing?

00:32:44.053 --> 00:32:45.116
I said I'm alright, I'm alright.

00:32:45.116 --> 00:32:46.513
He says have you got water?

00:32:46.513 --> 00:32:48.380
Yes, I've got water.

00:32:48.380 --> 00:32:55.801
Have you got some food?

00:32:55.801 --> 00:32:56.503
Yes, I've got food.

00:32:56.503 --> 00:32:58.809
And have you got a place to stay tonight?

00:32:58.809 --> 00:32:59.826
Yes, I've got a place to stay tonight.

00:32:59.826 --> 00:33:00.424
I was getting quite annoyed with him.

00:33:00.424 --> 00:33:01.776
Yeah, I've got a place to stay tonight.

00:33:01.776 --> 00:33:08.817
And he got back in his motorbike and he looked around at me and he went good, I'm just making sure you've got what you need.

00:33:08.817 --> 00:33:19.077
And he rode off and I looked up to the heavens like, really, I'm harley davidson rider, no chance of an ice cream, god.

00:33:19.077 --> 00:33:25.073
But the the point of that was so powerful to me yeah we.

00:33:25.213 --> 00:33:26.537
I alluded to it earlier on.

00:33:26.537 --> 00:33:34.137
When the celebrities do these challenges, they have a winnebago, they have a sports masseuse, they have a doctor, they have hotels.

00:33:34.137 --> 00:33:35.881
They have everything laid on for them.

00:33:35.881 --> 00:33:37.963
I wanted all that.

00:33:37.963 --> 00:33:44.682
I wanted the winnebago, I wanted the sports masseuse, I wanted 20 pairs of trainers to choose from every day.

00:33:44.682 --> 00:34:00.653
What I needed was food, water and shelter, and it was a great warning, or a great um thing for me to say right, okay, tom, if you focus on what you need, you'll get what you want if you focus on what you want, you'll never get what you need.

00:34:01.955 --> 00:34:14.143
So for me that was a very powerful uh interaction with um, a harley davidson rider, on that road, the loneliest road, and on that road, the loneliest road, and on that road, for me was such a spiritual experience.

00:34:14.143 --> 00:34:20.480
Anybody who's been an addict, anyone who's in recovery, will know how solitary that life can be.

00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:22.817
You feel like you're the only one.

00:34:22.817 --> 00:34:25.476
You feel like nobody's looking out for you.

00:34:25.476 --> 00:34:38.858
And for me it was so powerful that A, the motorbike rider was there helping me out and about another 100 miles down the road was a cowboy, just a cowboy, a random cowboy.

00:34:38.858 --> 00:34:40.735
So what's he doing here?

00:34:40.735 --> 00:34:42.534
So I'm looking after my cattle.

00:34:42.534 --> 00:34:44.858
He says my farm's 300 miles that way.

00:34:44.858 --> 00:34:46.838
But I'm the local pastor.

00:34:46.838 --> 00:34:51.003
You know what the local pastor in this area?

00:34:51.003 --> 00:34:53.414
He says there's not a church for 500 miles.

00:34:53.414 --> 00:34:54.619
He says no, it's 300 miles.

00:34:54.619 --> 00:34:58.653
So I'm the local pastor and he asked me.

00:34:58.653 --> 00:35:00.760
He says have you got the Lord Jesus Christ in your life?

00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:11.574
Now you've got a picture of the same, an ultra runner who looks dishevelled, a guy with a white hat on a white horse, asking me about Jesus Christ.

00:35:11.574 --> 00:35:29.338
I went yes, I have got him in my life, yeah, and he got down off his horse and he put his hands on my shoulders and he prayed for me and it was like the most phenomenal, powerful experience I've ever experienced and it kind of just set me off on.

00:35:29.358 --> 00:35:31.702
This path of this is guided.

00:35:31.702 --> 00:35:34.557
You know there's somebody else looking out for you.

00:35:34.557 --> 00:35:37.659
You know we ask for that all the time in our recovery.

00:35:37.659 --> 00:35:39.556
Is somebody actually looking out for you?

00:35:39.556 --> 00:35:43.815
Now, this isn't a God thing For me, this is a spiritual thing.

00:35:43.815 --> 00:35:52.717
You know, I got it further on, when I was in Utah going through the mountains, and I actually felt like the mountains were saying to me it's okay, we've got you.

00:35:52.717 --> 00:35:55.876
You know, listen to us, follow our path.

00:35:55.876 --> 00:35:59.103
We've been here for thousands and millions of years.

00:35:59.103 --> 00:36:04.380
You're just a tiny little speck, but if you trust us, you're going to be all right.

00:36:05.101 --> 00:36:10.063
And I got that really powerful experience quite a few times, especially in the mountains.

00:36:10.063 --> 00:36:28.778
You know, we talk about the native americans and we talk about the Native Americans and they talk about how they listen to law and I could see, and anyone who's doing anything, spend some time in solitude, because I only had my brother with me and my cousin was there for a little bit and a friend of mine, but most of the time it was just me and my youngest brother.

00:36:28.778 --> 00:36:36.789
He was driving the support vehicle, so I didn't speak to anyone all day, literally didn't see anyone, didn't talk to anyone apart from my brother.

00:36:36.789 --> 00:36:41.759
So solitude was so powerful in that, in that whole experience.

00:36:41.759 --> 00:36:49.338
Um, by the time I'd got to colorado, halfway there, you think to yourself do you know what?

00:36:49.338 --> 00:36:53.043
I'm not too sure you know I can do this.

00:36:53.043 --> 00:36:56.436
You know I was way behind the schedule.

00:36:56.436 --> 00:37:00.003
I'd been trying to do 30 miles a day every day.

00:37:00.063 --> 00:37:08.030
Some days it was 28, some days it was 27 and does that make a massive difference as well, when it doesn't sound like much, does it?

00:37:08.030 --> 00:37:10.554
You know, just been a couple of miles off, but I'm sure it all.

00:37:10.594 --> 00:37:14.541
Yeah, especially when you add in the five days of, yeah, rest days.

00:37:14.541 --> 00:37:17.025
So it was starting to chip away at it.

00:37:17.025 --> 00:37:20.016
Um and it, I got to the halfway point.

00:37:20.016 --> 00:37:22.161
I said, okay, it's half time, let's have a half time team.

00:37:22.161 --> 00:37:25.282
So if we continue doing what we're doing, we're not going to finish.

00:37:25.282 --> 00:37:27.231
Yeah, we're not going to finish in time.

00:37:27.231 --> 00:37:30.797
So we need to make sure we we change the plan.

00:37:31.077 --> 00:37:35.945
Yeah, so I changed my, my diet to what I could.

00:37:35.945 --> 00:37:38.896
I changed the mileage, how I was running the mileage.

00:37:38.896 --> 00:37:46.126
I'd run more at night, when it was a bit cooler, and I tried to change things around and for me that that seemed to work.

00:37:46.126 --> 00:37:47.851
We started to bring things back around.

00:37:47.851 --> 00:37:58.842
We started to realize that, yeah, it's okay to change the plan, it's okay to be in a position where you can say this isn't working.

00:37:59.925 --> 00:38:02.574
And again, I try to relate everything back to my addiction.

00:38:02.574 --> 00:38:10.237
Yeah, you know, when things don't work out, it's very easy for you to throw your hands in there and say I'll go back to what I know.

00:38:10.237 --> 00:38:21.635
You know when, when things have happened in my life since, um, I would be very easy for me to throw my hands in the air and say, you know, my brother died in 2020 from a drug overdose.

00:38:21.635 --> 00:38:24.931
Um, it would have been very easy for me to throw my hands in the air and go.

00:38:24.931 --> 00:38:26.195
I'm not.

00:38:26.195 --> 00:38:27.217
You know, I'm never going to do this.

00:38:27.217 --> 00:38:30.251
I'm going to go back to what I know, which is alcohol.

00:38:30.251 --> 00:38:34.822
But the america run taught me that you can change the plan.

00:38:34.822 --> 00:38:36.704
You don't have to follow it.

00:38:36.704 --> 00:38:37.369
It's not linear.

00:38:37.369 --> 00:38:38.856
You can change the plan.

00:38:38.856 --> 00:38:46.318
We changed the plan in Colorado and started to alter how we were doing things and started to bring the plan back on track.

00:38:48.260 --> 00:38:49.708
So you mentioned then about your brother.

00:38:49.708 --> 00:38:52.137
I've got a quote here as well.

00:38:52.137 --> 00:38:56.579
It says 11 years ago I stood ready to run across the United States of America.

00:38:56.579 --> 00:38:58.898
I was raising awareness about addiction and recovery.

00:38:58.898 --> 00:39:02.840
I probably did it in the hope that my brother, adrian, would gain strength from it.

00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:05.539
He didn't and died from an overdose in 2020.

00:39:05.539 --> 00:39:07.695
I'm sorry, I didn't try harder.

00:39:07.695 --> 00:39:14.880
Brother, can you or do you take responsibility for somebody else?

00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:16.123
Is addiction?

00:39:17.472 --> 00:39:24.744
it's a great question, and and and the truthful answer is yes, I do me personally.

00:39:24.744 --> 00:39:28.112
Yeah, that doesn't mean you should.

00:39:28.112 --> 00:39:37.159
Yeah, I've always been so.

00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:41.284
My brother especially god bless you, adrian.

00:39:41.284 --> 00:39:47.413
He, he idolized me as a, as a young lot.

00:39:48.213 --> 00:39:56.791
My dad died when I was 13 and he'd have been five, maybe six at the time, maybe a little bit older, but five or six.

00:39:56.791 --> 00:40:01.724
He, what you know, and he, I took on the dad role.

00:40:01.724 --> 00:40:06.554
I took on the dad role really badly because I was a 13 year old boy.

00:40:06.554 --> 00:40:08.836
Oh yeah, I did it really badly.

00:40:08.836 --> 00:40:26.869
I did everything wrong, I was too hard on him, I was physical, I was relentless in pushing him, but then I was also a bad role model because I had started drinking at 13.

00:40:26.869 --> 00:40:41.550
So of course, he followed, he followed drinking, he followed doing that sort of stuff, but he didn't follow the sobriety and I couldn't make him follow the sobriety.

00:40:41.550 --> 00:40:46.610
And we know, I know this you can't make anyone do anything.

00:40:47.853 --> 00:40:50.059
I think that's why it's really important to have this conversation.

00:40:50.059 --> 00:40:52.157
Is that not everybody gets it?

00:40:52.157 --> 00:41:00.161
Not everybody gets that, and we have to be aware that people are dying from this.

00:41:00.161 --> 00:41:09.722
People die from our illness, people die from our condition, people die from our actions, and Adrian was one.

00:41:09.722 --> 00:41:17.498
He couldn't get it, but I did blame myself, for he died in 2020 and had a proper breakdown after his inquest.

00:41:17.498 --> 00:41:27.878
When I heard, I think I'd chosen not to listen to how deeply involved in drugs he was.

00:41:28.994 --> 00:41:42.259
I think I'd chosen not to know about his heroin use, his crack use, For what reason Does it come from the idea that you blame yourself for it?

00:41:42.378 --> 00:41:42.739
in some way.

00:41:42.739 --> 00:41:59.163
Yeah, I think it was so hard for me to get to a point where I'd lost so much connection with him, yeah, that he'd been so far lost that there didn't appear to be any way back for him at the time.

00:41:59.163 --> 00:42:00.913
And I know that.

00:42:00.913 --> 00:42:13.442
You know I'm still a firm believer where there's breath, there's hope, you know, and I always hope that one day, and our relationship for the last year of his life was really good compared to what it had been- yeah.

00:42:14.302 --> 00:42:16.434
Because it had been In our adulthood.

00:42:16.434 --> 00:42:20.474
It was fairly volatile, even in my sobriety.

00:42:20.474 --> 00:42:29.599
He was fairly antagonistic about me, didn't like the fact that I was sober, thought that I was lording it up above him.

00:42:30.271 --> 00:42:35.960
I was better than him and it was never that way, no, but it's quite easy for that to happen, isn't it?

00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:41.110
I suppose, yeah, for people to think, oh, you think you're better than me because you've done X, y and Z.

00:42:41.110 --> 00:42:43.438
You've forgotten where you've come from Exactly that sort of stuff, yeah.

00:42:44.431 --> 00:42:46.358
And I definitely hadn't forgotten where I came from.

00:42:46.358 --> 00:42:58.880
I knew that I was one bad day away from being back where he was, but I did blame myself and I blamed myself so much in that year after Adrian died.

00:43:00.112 --> 00:43:03.476
I kind of lost myself, yeah, lost who I was as a person.

00:43:03.476 --> 00:43:12.699
A lot of self-loathing, a lot of emotion of why couldn't I save him?

00:43:12.699 --> 00:43:16.856
I think every addict's like that why can't we save them all?

00:43:16.856 --> 00:43:22.862
And I came to the conclusion that Adrian is exactly where Adrian needs to be.

00:43:22.862 --> 00:43:26.940
His life was led the way he needed to lead it.

00:43:26.940 --> 00:43:29.697
He couldn't have led it any other way.

00:43:29.697 --> 00:43:35.257
That was just his way, which is tough.

00:43:35.257 --> 00:43:39.980
Yeah, it's tough did he?

00:43:41.134 --> 00:43:44.717
he saw you obviously finish this, this massive challenge that you'd taken on.

00:43:44.717 --> 00:43:53.715
That was done in a way to, like you say, inspire all these people that have gone through so much, especially in regards to addiction.

00:43:53.715 --> 00:43:58.259
Did he ever say that he felt inspired by you?

00:43:58.259 --> 00:43:59.463
No, did you ever no?

00:43:59.824 --> 00:44:02.094
Never, no, never, and I think that's.

00:44:02.650 --> 00:44:05.936
Because of all the people I feel like in this journey, of all the people that you're trying to reach.

00:44:05.936 --> 00:44:17.184
As well as talking to your past self of what can be achieved, I imagine a massive part of this as well was to reach out to your brother and to tell him what can be achieved.

00:44:17.184 --> 00:44:28.938
So it must be quite heartbreaking to have gone through everything that you've gone through to challenge that stigma, to get that message out there and it not get to the one person that you wanted it to get to A hundred percent.

00:44:29.210 --> 00:44:42.916
Yeah, it's been a real blot on my copy book, as it were, but I have to remember, and I have to keep remembering this, that not everybody gets it.

00:44:42.916 --> 00:44:56.123
Yeah, and I have to remember the people that did become inspired by this, that have continued to be inspired by going out and rolling across a continent, and that was-.

00:44:56.570 --> 00:45:01.759
I'm, inspired by it now hearing this story for the first time, I'm just sat here going wow, what an incredible thing.

00:45:02.630 --> 00:45:06.340
Here's the one thing that I remember in California.

00:45:06.340 --> 00:45:09.903
No, sorry Colorado, no, it wasn't, it was Pennsylvania.

00:45:09.903 --> 00:45:12.076
I have to remember my states.

00:45:12.630 --> 00:45:14.918
It's got so many places in such a short space of time.

00:45:15.349 --> 00:45:15.650
So Pennsylvania.

00:45:15.650 --> 00:45:20.338
By the time I'd got to the end, I was about 10 days out and I'd had enough.

00:45:20.338 --> 00:45:22.094
I'd given up on myself.

00:45:22.094 --> 00:45:25.838
Really, I was like you know, I didn't want to be anywhere near running across America.

00:45:25.838 --> 00:45:31.717
I'd done 90 days on the road and I went into a cafe in Pennsylvania and this woman's talking to me.

00:45:31.717 --> 00:45:32.798
So what are you doing?

00:45:32.798 --> 00:45:33.599
You look like you know.

00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:35.771
By that stage I look like Forrest Gump with the big beard.

00:45:35.771 --> 00:45:37.293
Um, and I went.

00:45:37.293 --> 00:45:39.257
This is so.

00:45:39.257 --> 00:45:42.090
I'm running across America raising awareness, but recovery from addiction.

00:45:42.090 --> 00:45:46.423
I dismissed her and she went.

00:45:46.423 --> 00:45:48.269
You need to speak to the guy that runs the cafe.

00:45:48.269 --> 00:45:50.414
I haven't got time.

00:45:50.414 --> 00:45:54.262
Too busy Things to do, miles to run.

00:45:54.262 --> 00:45:56.634
Bring me my breakfast and leave me alone.

00:45:56.634 --> 00:45:58.199
It's quite rude to it.

00:45:58.199 --> 00:46:02.077
It was early in the morning and I'd put on a main.

00:46:02.077 --> 00:46:07.054
I can't imagine you being the happiest, luckiest person taking on this challenge.

00:46:07.074 --> 00:46:08.577
By this stage, my core was uninjected.

00:46:08.597 --> 00:46:11.684
It had worn off, my knee was in bits, I was in a lot of pain.

00:46:11.684 --> 00:46:17.096
Anyway, she brought the breakfast and she says you need to go and speak to the guy behind the counter.

00:46:17.096 --> 00:46:19.775
I says all right, yeah, Let me get me pancakes.

00:46:19.775 --> 00:46:21.615
Tell me, Get me pancakes and me syrup.

00:46:21.615 --> 00:46:29.918
By that stage it was a combat to pancakes and syrup and bacon, Because when I first turned out there, syrup on your bacon, no chance.

00:46:33.329 --> 00:46:35.695
By course turned out there syrup on your bacon by the time I'd finished you've got to do it.

00:46:35.755 --> 00:46:37.277
Yeah, syrup on everything.

00:46:37.277 --> 00:46:39.221
Um, and eventually I felt a bit brighter.

00:46:39.221 --> 00:46:40.403
I said, okay, I'll go and see him.

00:46:40.403 --> 00:46:42.155
And I walked him into this kitchen.

00:46:42.155 --> 00:46:44.994
When this guy's preparing all the breakfasts, he says what are you doing?

00:46:44.994 --> 00:46:48.090
I said I'm running across america raising awareness, but recovery from addiction?

00:46:48.090 --> 00:46:52.382
And I said it that and he burst out into tears.

00:46:52.382 --> 00:46:59.036
And as he burst out into tears it was almost as though somebody had given me a punch in the stomach.

00:46:59.036 --> 00:47:02.663
Wake up, tom, wake up.

00:47:02.663 --> 00:47:05.896
And I said what's wrong?

00:47:05.896 --> 00:47:13.813
He says my son has just died from a heroin overdose and he's left four children behind, he says.

00:47:13.813 --> 00:47:24.958
And those four children are in a village where the people won't speak to them because their dad was a junkie and they've stopped speaking to the kids.

00:47:24.958 --> 00:47:34.612
So by this stage my eyes are filled up, I'm in tears, I'm getting angry and I said to him I said make sure you go home tonight.

00:47:34.612 --> 00:47:36.577
Tell those four children their dad did nothing wrong.

00:47:36.577 --> 00:48:06.099
Make sure you go home and tell those four children that there's a man out here that's run across an entire continent to try and change people's perspectives on on addiction, on people like their father, that people like their father haven't died in vain and this guy just came over to me and gave me the biggest hug and we shared tears, but tears of joy then, because he almost had hope, and for me that was the most powerful moment of their own.

00:48:06.099 --> 00:48:09.932
It was a, it was a reminder to me not to give up on this.

00:48:11.096 --> 00:48:17.277
There are days in in the addiction world and the recovery world where you will feel that you're giving up.

00:48:17.277 --> 00:48:19.061
What is the point?

00:48:19.061 --> 00:48:27.711
You know, when you see more addicts coming through the door, when you see this world in a mess, you almost think we can't.

00:48:27.711 --> 00:48:28.472
What can we do?

00:48:28.472 --> 00:48:32.242
One person at a time, that's all we can do.

00:48:32.242 --> 00:48:45.858
We can help one person at a time, whether it's by sharing a story, whether it's by listening to them, whether it's by being in their company, whether it's by attending an appointment, whether it's by just giving them another chance.

00:48:45.858 --> 00:48:47.882
One person at a time.

00:48:47.882 --> 00:48:55.817
And if we continue to do that, people like those children in america will know that their father didn't die in vain.

00:48:55.817 --> 00:48:58.487
I will know that my brother didn't die in vain.

00:48:58.487 --> 00:49:05.590
Yeah, my sister didn't die in vain, that my father didn't die in vain, because that's how addictions affected me.

00:49:05.590 --> 00:49:12.563
Those three people, yeah, um, just in my life as well, well as friends along the way.

00:49:12.563 --> 00:49:16.356
But we can't give up hope.

00:49:16.356 --> 00:49:26.661
We've got to continue to remember that by every step on this journey we take, whether it's running across America, whether it's just walking across Hull.

00:49:26.661 --> 00:49:34.661
If there's a person you see that needs to have a listening ear or needs to have some words of wisdom, give them to them, share them.

00:49:36.949 --> 00:49:43.856
The worst thing we can do in this world is to go through the world without sharing our experiences, without sharing our knowledge, without sharing who we are as individuals.

00:49:43.856 --> 00:49:45.201
I'm an addict.

00:49:45.201 --> 00:49:47.876
There's no way of getting away from that.

00:49:47.876 --> 00:49:50.646
I am an alcoholic in recovery 17 years.

00:49:50.646 --> 00:49:51.251
We've walked this path.

00:49:51.251 --> 00:49:51.711
I will never change that.

00:49:51.711 --> 00:49:51.972
I getting away from that.

00:49:51.972 --> 00:49:52.500
I am an alcoholic in recovery 17 years.

00:49:52.500 --> 00:49:52.702
We've walked this path.

00:49:52.702 --> 00:49:53.576
I will never change that.

00:49:53.576 --> 00:49:55.898
I'm proud to be in recovery.

00:49:55.898 --> 00:50:10.478
I'm proud to be an alcoholic in recovery because I have so much experience that I can share with, with those out there who haven't seen that yet because of the stigma attached to it, because people are too scared to talk about things.

00:50:10.478 --> 00:50:14.684
I'm proud I can walk this path you've?

00:50:14.971 --> 00:50:23.079
you've spoken before about wanting to create a national sobriety day and using what you've done to promote awareness and reduce that stigma around addiction.

00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:29.577
How do you see events like this helping individuals and communities affected by addiction?

00:50:30.338 --> 00:50:30.478
so.

00:50:30.478 --> 00:50:33.403
So I take great inspiration from Gay Pride.

00:50:33.403 --> 00:50:47.603
One of the most powerful days of my calendar is walking into Leeds in August for Gay Pride and I get really emotional, a big well up of emotion.

00:50:47.603 --> 00:50:54.018
My daughter just goes oh hey, dad's crying again, and it's so powerful for me.

00:50:54.018 --> 00:50:58.717
So I grew up in a generation where being gay was wrong.

00:50:58.717 --> 00:51:05.195
I grew up in that generation of men and women who were told to keep quiet because of their sexuality.

00:51:05.195 --> 00:51:13.240
And now, now we can have gay pride where we can walk through Leeds, people can walk through Leeds.

00:51:13.240 --> 00:51:21.190
My daughter, who's lesbian, can walk through Leeds proud of who she is, with no stigma attached.

00:51:21.429 --> 00:51:25.916
Yes, there are some idiots that we have to deal with still, and you're going to get that throughout society.

00:51:25.916 --> 00:51:29.336
They're always going to be so, but we're better than we were in the 80s.

00:51:29.336 --> 00:51:55.315
I would love to see a day where we can walk through Leeds or Manchester or Liverpool as a community of addicts, either in recovery or still active, but still saying we exist, we live amongst you, we are proud of who we are and we should be recognised as a community instead of walking through the shadows which we still are.

00:51:55.315 --> 00:51:57.282
Don't get me wrong, it's phenomenal.

00:51:57.282 --> 00:52:05.471
This podcast, for example, does phenomenal stuff to get us out of the shadows, but there are still people who would love to see us stay in the shadows.

00:52:05.471 --> 00:52:07.396
Yeah, that would love to see us.

00:52:07.396 --> 00:52:11.806
Um, not, not, come out, not, uh, spoil their party.

00:52:11.806 --> 00:52:14.577
The alcohol industry would probably love us to stay in the shadows.

00:52:15.130 --> 00:52:15.532
You know what I mean.

00:52:15.532 --> 00:52:28.777
They would probably love us to stay down, but I would love to be in a position where we can march through Leeds for one day a year, and I know we have certain Sobriety Recovery marches for me.

00:52:29.010 --> 00:52:37.411
The difference with the Sobriety Recovery marches, though, is we held the recovery walk here in hull last year, but that was the first time and probably the last time that it's going to be here.

00:52:37.411 --> 00:52:50.452
So those people who are in recovery who maybe have felt, uh, shame and the stigma they've done it once, and if they want to do it again, they're gonna have to travel a ridiculous amount of miles to be part of that event.

00:52:50.452 --> 00:52:58.188
But there is something about doing it locally in your own town every year, like pride, do pride have, you know, events?

00:52:58.188 --> 00:53:00.516
It's not just one pride event per year, is it?

00:53:00.516 --> 00:53:04.369
It's many pride events all across the all across the country.

00:53:04.369 --> 00:53:06.835
That's where, yeah, I do, you know.

00:53:06.835 --> 00:53:09.019
I just just to reiterate what you're saying.

00:53:09.019 --> 00:53:13.519
Yes, there are those things out there, but there's so few and far between, aren't they?

00:53:13.519 --> 00:53:13.951
Yeah?

00:53:14.030 --> 00:53:27.391
it's getting the people higher up to get behind a National Day of Sobriety, if you want to call it that, whatever you decide to do, but for me a National Day of Sobriety can mean it doesn't have to mean alcohol, it can mean sobriety from anything.

00:53:27.391 --> 00:53:39.780
Yeah, and we can have a day where we can say to the communities that we live in, not only are we here, but we're active and we're actively putting back into the communities.

00:53:39.780 --> 00:53:43.864
We're actively supporting those that you've ostracized for years.

00:53:43.864 --> 00:53:51.688
We're actively back, giving support and love and listening to people who have been marginalized for too long.

00:53:51.688 --> 00:53:55.786
Hmm, we're probably the most marginalized community in the country.

00:53:55.786 --> 00:53:57.273
Yeah, you know the recovery community.

00:53:58.277 --> 00:54:05.889
The way drug addicts and alcoholics are treated is still archaic in my opinion, and I have to state this is just my opinion.

00:54:05.889 --> 00:54:08.797
It's not, you know, it's not anyone else, it's it for me, that's.

00:54:08.797 --> 00:54:11.375
I think we're so marginalized, it's unbelievable.

00:54:11.375 --> 00:54:12.157
So a national deserbrary for me, that's.

00:54:12.157 --> 00:54:13.704
I think we're so marginalized it's unbelievable.

00:54:13.704 --> 00:54:14.768
So a national deser bright for me.

00:54:14.768 --> 00:54:27.735
We have to take Power from from the pride community, power from the LGBTQ plus community that they have stepped up Despite being beaten down, despite being Persecuted, sent to prison.

00:54:27.735 --> 00:54:31.097
Well, who else has been sent to prison.

00:54:31.097 --> 00:54:33.338
Who else has been persecuted?

00:54:33.338 --> 00:54:45.405
If you go into our prison system and look at our jails, alcohol and drugs are probably the biggest driver for that, and we're you know not to get too political here.

00:54:45.527 --> 00:54:52.989
No, of course, but we're, you know, we're criminalising the health problem, yeah, yeah, and for me we need to get rid of that.

00:54:53.150 --> 00:54:54.938
Do you think there has been improvements on that?

00:54:54.938 --> 00:54:57.251
I mean, I feel like I've kind of seen bear in mind.

00:54:57.251 --> 00:55:07.938
When I first started working in this sector, I was part of a criminal justice only service and now it's a community-based service and I think the criminal justice arm of it is a very small percentage of it.

00:55:07.938 --> 00:55:09.817
Do you think that has gotten better, then?

00:55:09.817 --> 00:55:11.632
Percentage of it?

00:55:11.632 --> 00:55:15.068
Do you think that has gotten better than, rather than seeing it as a criminal issue but seen as a health issue from your experience, I think we're still.

00:55:15.188 --> 00:55:16.713
We're still miles off where we need to be.

00:55:16.713 --> 00:55:22.393
Yeah, I think when you speak to the police and you listen to how they still perceive it.

00:55:22.393 --> 00:55:25.440
Yeah, I still think it's dealt with as a criminal issue.

00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:27.543
Um, we're getting better.

00:55:27.543 --> 00:55:30.199
Yeah, we are getting better, and it's slowly, slowly.

00:55:30.199 --> 00:55:30.760
Um, we are getting better.

00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:39.748
Yeah, yeah, we are getting better and it's slowly, slowly we are getting better, but I still think we have a long way to go before we get to a point where we're treating people for trauma.

00:55:39.949 --> 00:55:42.038
Yeah, we're treating people with health problems.

00:55:42.038 --> 00:55:45.119
I think trauma is a word that we need to deal with more.

00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:48.295
How many of people who are?

00:55:48.295 --> 00:55:48.737
You know?

00:55:48.737 --> 00:55:50.262
We talk immigration.

00:55:50.262 --> 00:55:56.916
Some of these people are fleeing some of the most traumatic events in modern times and we've ignored that.

00:55:57.731 --> 00:56:02.215
We're ignoring the fact that so many of our young people have grown up in poverty.

00:56:02.215 --> 00:56:09.197
Over austerity years, where services have been cut back, their parents have been struggling to keep them fed.

00:56:09.197 --> 00:56:10.481
That's trauma.

00:56:10.481 --> 00:56:13.025
We need to understand the word.

00:56:13.025 --> 00:56:16.340
Trauma is not what we originally perceived it to be.

00:56:16.340 --> 00:56:19.652
It doesn't have to be World War II, you know.

00:56:19.652 --> 00:56:24.353
A child's trauma can lead to so many other things and I think we need to deal with that.

00:56:24.534 --> 00:56:24.996
Do you know what?

00:56:24.996 --> 00:56:25.297
It's funny?

00:56:25.297 --> 00:56:31.356
You should say that because even I think the one thing that I never really understood as a trauma similar to what you just said there.

00:56:31.356 --> 00:56:49.715
I relate trauma to things like, you know, partaking in, say, the war in Afghanistan and things like that, something of that level, but so many people who struggle around the time of Christmas because they had really awful Christmas days growing up, that in itself is a trauma.

00:56:49.715 --> 00:56:50.751
Yeah, do you know?

00:56:50.751 --> 00:57:07.460
And just waking up to nothing and, and you know, parents being under the influence and them being forgotten about at a time when so much of it is about you know, you see it on tv of giving and the magic of christmas and kids waking up to, like that in itself, when you start talking to people, it's like wow, I didn't.

00:57:07.460 --> 00:57:17.605
I think I just underestimated how traumatic it was to just be someone who lived in those circumstances.

00:57:18.010 --> 00:57:21.601
I think that word trauma needs to be looked at in more depth.

00:57:21.601 --> 00:57:31.637
It's how you perceive, it's how you've received that Christmas day, how you've experienced it.

00:57:31.637 --> 00:57:36.356
We often have this conversation about well, they all grew up in the same family.

00:57:36.356 --> 00:57:38.715
How are they all so different?

00:57:38.715 --> 00:57:41.016
Well, they're the same parents.

00:57:41.016 --> 00:57:43.333
Well, they didn't have the same parents.

00:57:43.333 --> 00:57:45.880
Let's be right about this.

00:57:45.969 --> 00:57:56.376
If you grew up in a family of five, which I did, my mum and dad were very different to my youngest brother than they were to my oldest sister, because they had different years of experience, different life experience.

00:57:56.376 --> 00:58:00.398
So whether we as parents, we try to say this, all of them are the same.

00:58:00.398 --> 00:58:01.221
No, we don't.

00:58:01.221 --> 00:58:11.753
We just don't, because the children experience us differently at different times in their lives, and I think that's really important, that we have to remember that it's how you experience something.

00:58:11.753 --> 00:58:14.536
I could say something to you now and you've experienced it.

00:58:14.536 --> 00:58:20.242
As I've said it and as I've meant it, somebody listening to this podcast will go do you know what?

00:58:20.242 --> 00:58:20.844
I've heard that?

00:58:20.844 --> 00:58:32.188
Completely different, and if this listened to be 10,000 people, there'll be 10,000 people will hear it differently from their own experience well, that's, that's it.

00:58:32.268 --> 00:58:38.710
It's, um, looking at ourselves as individuals, everyone that we ever meet will experience us in different ways as well.

00:58:38.710 --> 00:58:42.126
Yeah, like nobody will ever know me, kind of like how I know myself.

00:58:42.126 --> 00:58:42.648
That's right.

00:58:42.648 --> 00:58:49.813
Your perception of me will be completely different to robbie's perception of me, or, you know, mike, in the other room, there, they'll all see me differently.

00:58:49.813 --> 00:58:51.677
Yeah, and that's the thing, isn't it?

00:58:51.677 --> 00:58:57.981
You know, going back to, as you said, then, growing up in a house, different circumstances, I've got one daughter.

00:58:57.981 --> 00:59:02.894
Because I've got one daughter, I can afford to do lots of things with that child.

00:59:02.894 --> 00:59:06.599
If I have two free kids, money's going to be a bit tighter.

00:59:06.599 --> 00:59:16.208
The third child along there, for instance, is going to have a completely different experience to the first child, just based on the fact that I can't afford the same things for three children as I could for one child.

00:59:16.208 --> 00:59:16.510
That's right.

00:59:16.510 --> 00:59:20.161
So it's a really interesting point that I've never actually thought about.

00:59:20.161 --> 00:59:21.695
But yeah, you're completely right there.

00:59:21.695 --> 00:59:24.699
Everyone's going to have that really different experience in the family.

00:59:24.789 --> 00:59:30.737
And talking about your family specifically, you mentioned obviously we talked about your brother, adrian.

00:59:30.737 --> 00:59:32.860
He mentioned your sister as well.

00:59:32.860 --> 00:59:35.844
All all had problems with addiction.

00:59:35.844 --> 00:59:42.552
Where do you think that comes from, because you made the joke earlier about being irish going to the doctor and it's like, of course you're irish.

00:59:42.552 --> 00:59:57.900
Is there something in there that you see the disease, in quotations of addiction, as a hereditary thing that was passed on from your parents, or do you think it was the social environment in which you've grown up in?

00:59:57.900 --> 01:00:07.275
Explain to me how you think that addiction developed for yourself and for your siblings as well, really on the topic of it, for us it's definitely um.

01:00:07.456 --> 01:00:15.731
Environment, environment is very important in any growth of any addiction and for us.

01:00:15.731 --> 01:00:20.623
So we were chucking along nicely in the north of Ireland.

01:00:20.623 --> 01:00:22.914
You know, lovely going away.

01:00:22.914 --> 01:00:24.239
Now things were tough.

01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:27.338
You know, dad wasn't exactly the best at times.

01:00:27.338 --> 01:00:29.436
He struggled with his mental health.

01:00:29.436 --> 01:00:34.574
He struggled with substance misuse, lost his job, had to work for four years.

01:00:34.574 --> 01:00:40.469
Then we moved to England and moving to England was a disaster, absolute disaster.

01:00:40.469 --> 01:00:41.918
For what reason?

01:00:41.918 --> 01:00:49.757
Well, I always said I explain it to people I didn't want to come to England because I'd heard strange things about the English.

01:00:49.757 --> 01:00:51.972
I'd heard you were all like the devil, you know, like two horns.

01:00:51.972 --> 01:00:53.760
You want to come to England because I'd heard strange things about the English.

01:00:53.780 --> 01:00:55.909
I'd heard you were all like the devil, you know, like two horns and you want to kill us.

01:00:55.909 --> 01:00:59.059
But equally, what I didn't realise was that you didn't like us.

01:00:59.059 --> 01:01:04.793
Certainly when I came to Wakefield, you know I'd been tied to a tree and beaten with sticks and laughed about.

01:01:04.793 --> 01:01:16.094
You know, any time a bomber went off playing the paddy kid, any time a teacher asked a question, I answered my funny accent, I laughed, I punched.

01:01:16.094 --> 01:01:21.072
Um, you know, being an irish kid in the 80s in england, in wakefield specifically, was a tough place to be.

01:01:21.072 --> 01:01:23.438
I experienced it really tough.

01:01:23.438 --> 01:01:26.025
I lost my voice, I couldn't speak.

01:01:26.025 --> 01:01:39.297
Um, I was this streetwise belfast kid who'd come over here knowing how life worked, and then all of a sudden I couldn't speak, didn't want to speak because of my stupid accent, and it destroyed us as a family.

01:01:39.297 --> 01:01:40.380
And then my dad died.

01:01:40.380 --> 01:01:46.199
So my dad went to bed one night after having a bottle of whiskey he never drunk, all right.

01:01:46.199 --> 01:01:48.536
So my dad only drunk one bottle of whiskey in his life.

01:01:48.536 --> 01:01:56.204
My dad had other issues and one bottle of whiskey in his life, my dad had other issues and he choked to death At 39 years of age.

01:01:56.224 --> 01:02:11.893
Five children, one bottle of whiskey, the trauma that I left behind, of losing your father suddenly like that, in such extreme circumstances, obliterated us as a family.

01:02:11.893 --> 01:02:13.998
It was like somebody had thrown a hand us as a family.

01:02:13.998 --> 01:02:14.418
It absolutely.

01:02:14.418 --> 01:02:18.416
It was like somebody had thrown a hand grenade into our family and blown us all to bits.

01:02:18.416 --> 01:02:26.320
My mother gave up on us for a few years, you know she'd lost a husband of 19 years, a father of five kids.

01:02:26.320 --> 01:02:28.905
Sat in his big armchair all day crying and eating food.

01:02:28.905 --> 01:02:33.951
She got better, but she was focused on my two little brothers.

01:02:33.951 --> 01:02:40.161
Um, I was left more or less to be the man of the house as I saw it.

01:02:40.161 --> 01:02:41.931
She never actually said that to me.

01:02:41.931 --> 01:02:43.394
She never said be the man of the house.

01:02:43.394 --> 01:02:45.659
And my sisters were the same though.

01:02:45.659 --> 01:02:47.952
My sister, who passed in 2022.

01:02:47.952 --> 01:02:49.335
She found my dad.

01:02:49.335 --> 01:02:57.829
She found him At 14 years of age, walked into her dad's bedroom and found him dead on the bed.

01:02:57.829 --> 01:02:59.896
Her life was never the same again.

01:02:59.896 --> 01:03:02.876
You know, it was never the same again.

01:03:04.150 --> 01:03:12.844
My brother, adrian, was dad's complete favourite and again, you know everyone oh, nobody else's favourite Adrian was his favourite, 100% his favourite Adrian.

01:03:12.844 --> 01:03:14.045
Again, you know everyone, oh, nobody has favourite Adrian was his favourite 100%.

01:03:14.045 --> 01:03:15.039
His favourite.

01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:17.976
Adrian would get away with everything and he became mum's favourite.

01:03:17.976 --> 01:03:24.215
So that whole over mothering, all that sort of stuff destroyed Adrian eventually.

01:03:24.215 --> 01:03:47.202
So that whole one, those two instances of moving from Ireland to England and my dad dying, where they created a perfect environment for addiction to grow in wakefield as well, where drinking culture the westgate run was very prevalent um, I fell straight into it because I realized as soon as I started drinking I could talk.

01:03:47.202 --> 01:03:50.090
Nobody laughed at my accent.

01:03:50.090 --> 01:03:51.813
Actually the girls loved my accent.

01:03:51.813 --> 01:03:58.112
So as a 13 year old boy with drinking me it was like all my, all my dreams have been answered.

01:03:58.452 --> 01:04:00.137
This thing called alcohol was my saviour.

01:04:00.137 --> 01:04:04.050
Adrian probably felt the same and Sinead definitely felt the same.

01:04:04.050 --> 01:04:15.601
After a difficult marriage she had severe mental health issues after the fire in Delhi and struggled all her life with alcohol and drugs prescription medication.

01:04:15.601 --> 01:04:22.018
So I think it's the environment for me rather than it being a hereditary.

01:04:22.018 --> 01:04:24.538
I think environment is massive.

01:04:24.538 --> 01:04:28.856
Poverty helps, you know, it, helps it grow.

01:04:28.856 --> 01:04:39.260
And trauma and trauma for us was our father going to bed one night 39 years of age and choking to death.

01:04:39.630 --> 01:04:40.697
It's a real mixing pot.

01:04:40.697 --> 01:04:44.074
There are things that I think, even now talking about it, you know, I've.

01:04:44.074 --> 01:05:00.034
I guess the interesting thing when I do this podcast is when you hear people's stories like that, you think, christ, if I'd experienced that, I'd probably probably have a problem with substances myself, because it's very easy when we go back to the stigma of it.

01:05:00.034 --> 01:05:15.735
I think it's very easy for people to judge people with addiction problems whether it be alcohol or drugs who have had a really good upbringing, really good relationship, parents are still married, nice family home, and I think, just try and put yourself in someone else's shoes.

01:05:15.735 --> 01:05:26.222
This is the whole reason why I do this podcast is I want people to hear other people's stories and just think, actually, if I experience a fraction of that, maybe, maybe I'd be struggling with these things as well.

01:05:26.362 --> 01:05:41.239
Yeah, and I guess that's why it's so important to have these conversations and to hear these stories 100% because we don't know what people are going through or have been through, and I've met some people who have grown up in very nice houses but have still struggled with addiction.

01:05:41.239 --> 01:05:42.061
Yeah, absolutely.

01:05:42.061 --> 01:05:51.800
Because what we see as very nice houses possibly has been lacking in love, yeah, or possibly been lacking in something else that they haven't been getting.

01:05:51.800 --> 01:05:54.398
So it's how you experience that environment.

01:05:54.449 --> 01:05:56.570
The experience is what we're coming back to, isn't it?

01:05:56.570 --> 01:05:57.527
I guess that's the important thing.

01:05:57.809 --> 01:06:00.599
Everyone's experience of that environment is completely different.

01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:08.269
I also know people who grew up in my sort of circumstances, who didn't turn around to addiction, didn't go to addiction.

01:06:08.269 --> 01:06:13.699
So it's how you've experienced it and how you find your escape from the pain.

01:06:13.699 --> 01:06:15.775
For some people it's work.

01:06:15.775 --> 01:06:19.635
They throw themselves into a career and they work their way through the pain.

01:06:19.635 --> 01:06:20.920
For me, it was drink.

01:06:20.920 --> 01:06:24.532
The pain doesn't go away.

01:06:24.532 --> 01:06:25.896
I think that's really important to say as well.

01:06:26.278 --> 01:06:29.751
And I'm 17 years in recovery and I still struggle with it.

01:06:29.751 --> 01:06:38.936
I still struggle with the pain of childhood, the pain of of loss, sudden loss, especially after the loss recently of my brother, my sister sister and my mum.

01:06:38.936 --> 01:06:53.563
My mother died last November, just a year ago, and losing those three people in my life in such a short space of time triggered back the sudden death of my father from 30-odd years ago.

01:06:53.563 --> 01:07:00.001
So we have to deal with this again of how it affected me.

01:07:00.001 --> 01:07:02.175
As a child, I went and did therapy for a year.

01:07:02.175 --> 01:07:12.474
Yeah, it was brilliant being able to go back to that little boy who was lost and being able to say to him you're all right, you can, you can cope with this.

01:07:12.474 --> 01:07:14.197
You've been through this before.

01:07:14.197 --> 01:07:16.831
It's going to be painful but you can cope.

01:07:16.831 --> 01:07:22.143
I'm being kind to that little boy and I think I was kind.

01:07:22.550 --> 01:07:39.280
I'm now in a position, a year later on from my mum's passing, probably the strongest I've been mentally for many years, certainly since Adrian died and I think it's always to remind yourself that this journey of recovery isn't linear.

01:07:39.280 --> 01:07:43.170
It's not just going to be once you sober up.

01:07:43.170 --> 01:07:44.713
It's going to be a straight path to freedom.

01:07:44.713 --> 01:07:45.976
It's not.

01:07:45.976 --> 01:07:57.422
You're going to have problems, you're going to have issues, you're going to have difficulties along the road, and it's understanding that you have another way of dealing with it other than your substance.

01:07:58.184 --> 01:08:09.851
So for me, therapy, writing, talking, all those sorts of things for me are so important because I don't roll anymore, because my knees are don't cost you, but they go to the gym five times a week.

01:08:09.851 --> 01:08:11.914
Try and make sure I do something physical.

01:08:11.914 --> 01:08:18.936
I write almost daily and I talk to my partner about everything I'm feeling and she talks to me.

01:08:18.936 --> 01:08:28.060
But everything she's feeling, that's not the set and that makes it sound like we're a couple of right wingers, but we're not you know what I mean sometimes do you know what I don't feel right cracking today.

01:08:28.390 --> 01:08:29.194
I'm like what's going on?

01:08:29.194 --> 01:08:36.751
And it's not that she's become my counsellor, because that's really unhealthy, it's just that we listen, just sometimes you just need somebody to listen.

01:08:36.771 --> 01:08:40.478
Yeah, and sometimes it's not a case of they're expecting a solution to it or anything.

01:08:40.478 --> 01:08:47.378
It's just nice to say things that are on your mind, get things off your chest, and even that can be a really healthy thing.

01:08:47.378 --> 01:08:59.802
Going back to we've kind of come back to this in a bit of a roundabout way, but what was the feeling like after completing the 3,100 miles then?

01:09:10.630 --> 01:09:11.452
Again, I'll be as truthful as I can.

01:09:11.452 --> 01:09:12.092
It was horrendous.

01:09:12.092 --> 01:09:14.458
So I got to the finish line and there's four people at the finish line.

01:09:14.458 --> 01:09:20.939
So there's two friends from England who lived in America, my brother and another like person from America.

01:09:20.939 --> 01:09:23.384
So you have this thing in your head.

01:09:23.384 --> 01:09:25.764
You're going to run through New York and there's going to be a ticker tape parade.

01:09:25.764 --> 01:09:28.237
You know what I mean.

01:09:28.237 --> 01:09:37.838
There's going to be this big fanfare, there's going to be TV cameras and you're going to be running down like Rocky and all these kids are going to be following you through the streets of New York and there's four people at the finish line.

01:09:37.838 --> 01:09:47.552
And it was fairly, and I think that's that was perfect, because that's exactly how addiction is treated.

01:09:47.872 --> 01:09:57.378
Yeah, it's like nobody cares yeah, I know we do no, no, I get it we do, but in the general world, yeah, nobody cares.

01:09:58.523 --> 01:10:08.537
um, it was great to get some of the messages back home, but even when I came back home again, the first person from wake great to get some of the messages back home, but even when I came back home again, the first person from Wakefield to have run across the United States of America thought there'd be a big thing about it.

01:10:08.537 --> 01:10:11.296
Page 34 of the Wakefield Express.

01:10:11.296 --> 01:10:16.216
Page 34 of the Wakefield Express.

01:10:16.216 --> 01:10:17.756
They even got the story wrong.

01:10:18.310 --> 01:10:22.238
They didn't even send the journalist out, they just did it over the phone and got all the states wrong.

01:10:22.238 --> 01:10:22.720
Yeah.

01:10:22.720 --> 01:10:25.476
Got the mileage wrong, got everything wrong.

01:10:25.476 --> 01:10:25.618
Yeah.

01:10:25.618 --> 01:10:30.166
Did a big full page spread in the centre of it for the people who were doing the Great North Run.

01:10:30.166 --> 01:10:35.842
Yeah, but little old Tom had run 3,000 miles across a continent page 34.

01:10:36.090 --> 01:10:38.238
I'm still bitter about that yeah, do you know what?

01:10:38.238 --> 01:10:39.796
No, and rightly so, right.

01:10:46.229 --> 01:10:46.811
Because everything about that.

01:10:46.811 --> 01:10:47.252
Yeah, do you know what?

01:10:47.252 --> 01:10:48.837
No, and rightly so, and right, because everything, the story that you've told me.

01:10:48.837 --> 01:10:52.930
Today, I'm sat here thinking, wow, what a great movie this would make, yeah, but I'm so, I'm so frustrated that I didn't get to more people, that I didn't get this message out to more people.

01:10:52.930 --> 01:11:13.243
And this is why I'm doing things like this today, 10 years down the track, because I want to get this message to more people that when you, when you do finally decide that today's the day I'm going to recover, there's so many opportunities for you, so many opportunities for you to take, and if you take your opportunities, that'll feed your potential.

01:11:14.186 --> 01:11:15.551
Your potential didn't go away.

01:11:15.551 --> 01:11:18.481
You're born with potential.

01:11:18.481 --> 01:11:20.670
Every one of us is born with the same amount of potential.

01:11:20.670 --> 01:11:38.134
The difference is some of us have better opportunities, and what I've realized is, if I take my opportunities, I will feed my potential, and that's the message that I was so annoyed about not getting out to more people as it, as a, as a, when I finished that role.

01:11:38.134 --> 01:11:40.136
Page 34field Express.

01:11:40.136 --> 01:11:41.238
I haven't bought it since.

01:11:41.238 --> 01:11:42.380
No.

01:11:42.699 --> 01:11:43.881
But yeah, that's it.

01:11:43.881 --> 01:11:44.682
I've done the same thing.

01:11:44.682 --> 01:12:00.220
I guess there is something there Like had you known that there wasn't going to be the big fanfare, had you known that it was going to get page 34 in the Wakefield Gazette, or whatever it's called, would you have taken on the challenge?

01:12:00.320 --> 01:12:15.899
Yes, you'd still have done that, I'd still have done it because it was so important to not let that side of me take over, Because that's ego yeah but I think when you're doing something like this, you know ego has to come into it in some respects.

01:12:15.949 --> 01:12:25.364
I don't think you'd take on a challenge like this without it wanting to feed your ego a little bit, Because now you meet someone and you know you'd take on a challenge like this without it wanting to feed your ego a little bit, because now you, you meet someone and you know all the.

01:12:25.364 --> 01:12:31.761
The only note I had about yourself today was in recovery and had ran 3100 miles across addiction.

01:12:31.761 --> 01:12:32.926
I was like fucking sold.

01:12:32.966 --> 01:12:34.572
Do you know, I mean can't wait to talk to him.

01:12:34.572 --> 01:12:37.578
That in itself, I guess that must.

01:12:37.578 --> 01:12:46.755
You could not that you'd introduce yourself as that, but that's something that you have about yourself which I think is absolutely incredible I think for a few years it was a bit of an embarrassment, really.

01:12:47.077 --> 01:12:48.863
Yeah, but an embarrassment for what reason?

01:12:48.863 --> 01:12:53.197
I became that person in run across america okay, yeah, and there was so much more to it.

01:12:53.197 --> 01:12:55.722
Yeah, it wasn't just about running across america.

01:12:55.722 --> 01:13:00.158
I wanted the conversation to be about addiction recovery, but sobriety.

01:13:00.158 --> 01:13:02.304
That's why I've called the book it's not about the beard.

01:13:02.304 --> 01:13:12.742
So I did write a book 2015 and, uh, and I called it it's not about the beard because when I came back telling people the story, all they were interested in was do you condition your beard?

01:13:12.742 --> 01:13:15.716
You know how long is your beard gonna go?

01:13:15.716 --> 01:13:17.881
Um, how often do you trim it?

01:13:17.881 --> 01:13:18.842
And I got really annoyed.

01:13:18.842 --> 01:13:23.394
One day I went it's not about that fucking beard.

01:13:23.434 --> 01:13:26.277
But the guy that was publishing the book wouldn't go for it.

01:13:26.277 --> 01:13:29.640
It's not about that beard, so it's not about the beard.

01:13:29.760 --> 01:13:32.903
I saw that on a shelf envelope Lance Armstrong's was.

01:13:32.943 --> 01:13:33.863
it's not about the bike.

01:13:34.184 --> 01:13:36.645
Okay, so for me it's not about the beard.

01:13:38.130 --> 01:13:50.515
And you know, for me that was so important that we tried to continue to share that message that you know it was so much more than a beard or so much more than running across America.

01:13:50.515 --> 01:13:58.000
It was about passion, it was about love, it was about family, it was about recovery, it was about addiction, it was about death, it was about everything that goes with.

01:13:58.000 --> 01:14:01.261
It was more than just running across America.

01:14:01.261 --> 01:14:03.141
Yeah, absolutely.

01:14:03.481 --> 01:14:06.844
I think you've alluded to the Forrest Gump thing already.

01:14:06.844 --> 01:14:11.626
One of the things my producer told me was don't mention Forrest Gump Now.

01:14:11.626 --> 01:14:12.487
You mentioned it before.

01:14:12.587 --> 01:14:30.454
I did, and I guess, with that, though, I get why he said that it's because it does diminish the achievement of what you've done and it does put the highlight on something else, and I imagine, when you talk about that shame of going up to people and and you know that being your story, and I'm talking about the beard, oh yeah, I've run 3,100 miles across America.

01:14:30.454 --> 01:14:31.578
Oh, like Forrest Gump.

01:14:32.100 --> 01:14:37.662
No not like Forrest fucking Gump, because it's a fictional character and I did it, and I did it for this, this reason.

01:14:37.662 --> 01:14:39.162
Yeah, the difference between me and forest company.

01:14:39.181 --> 01:14:39.783
Is I'm real?

01:14:39.943 --> 01:14:42.283
yeah, exactly, yeah it is frustrating?

01:14:42.524 --> 01:14:44.564
yeah, it is, but I'll be honest with you.

01:14:44.564 --> 01:15:03.472
Um, even if you don't mention forest company, if you say to somebody you've run 3100 miles, the stock answer I get at the minute is I do parkrun or I've run london marathon and that it's lovely, but people can't comprehend 3,100 miles is.

01:15:03.632 --> 01:15:03.934
No, no.

01:15:03.934 --> 01:15:15.697
Well, it was in my head working out, like Sid, the comment of the 10-11 marathons a year, and then when you said about the actual so a good way of doing it when I speak to students in schools.

01:15:16.262 --> 01:15:22.978
3,100 miles from Hull would get you to Iraq, oh god my head Alright, so miles from Hull would get you to Iraq.

01:15:22.978 --> 01:15:24.100
Oh God, my head All right.

01:15:24.100 --> 01:15:27.069
So so we get you to a little bit into Iraq.

01:15:27.069 --> 01:15:30.626
Yeah, so from here to Istanbul is about two and a half thousand miles.

01:15:30.626 --> 01:15:34.319
Yeah, so another 500 miles takes you into Iraq and all that sort of place.

01:15:34.319 --> 01:15:35.411
So that's so.

01:15:35.411 --> 01:15:40.654
When we talk about America, people don't fully comprehend the size of it.

01:15:41.416 --> 01:15:45.662
You know, the Atlantic Ocean is only 2,000 miles wide and I've done 3,100.

01:15:45.662 --> 01:15:46.689
So it was about trying to-.

01:15:46.710 --> 01:16:00.018
That sounds more impressive if you say you've ran the length of the Atlantic Ocean and it's much smaller as well, I did try and I was trying to row the Atlantic Ocean many years ago, but I couldn't raise the funds, I couldn't buy the boat, so you know.

01:16:00.018 --> 01:16:05.596
So there's things like when I'm telling the story to people and the Forrest Gump analogy comes up.

01:16:05.596 --> 01:16:06.460
I laugh at it.

01:16:06.460 --> 01:16:13.456
Now I'm looking forward to another, maybe another 10 years still telling the story, because it's still got as much power.

01:16:13.456 --> 01:16:17.956
Yeah, absolutely 10 or 11 years down the track now and it's still got as much power.

01:16:17.956 --> 01:16:20.731
Now I can't wait until there's grandkids around.

01:16:20.731 --> 01:16:21.193
Yeah.

01:16:21.632 --> 01:16:25.157
And I'll be able to tell the story to grandkids and they'll go.

01:16:25.157 --> 01:16:29.240
You know, go and ask your granddad about running across the United States of America.

01:16:29.240 --> 01:16:31.984
The Sahara Desert on its own was tough.

01:16:31.984 --> 01:16:34.386
So you speak to people who have done the Marathon Disciples.

01:16:34.386 --> 01:16:40.850
So to have that on your running CV.

01:16:40.850 --> 01:16:50.360
For me I'm immensely proud as a person in recovery to have been able to do something like that to show people that we are worth investing in.

01:16:50.381 --> 01:16:50.640
That is the.

01:16:50.640 --> 01:16:51.403
Do you know what's crazy?

01:16:51.403 --> 01:16:56.688
I think had you done that run now, you would have much more profile than you did you.

01:16:56.688 --> 01:16:59.983
You made the comment earlier about you know, you couldn't even get data in most places in america.

01:16:59.983 --> 01:17:15.921
With the way the world is now, with tiktok reels and all that and influence, I mean one of the things that when you, when you talked about the ultra marathon, I thought about david goggins and you know someone that you're probably aware of, but what you're doing now sounds like, or what you did do.

01:17:15.921 --> 01:17:23.250
It sounds like much more of an accomplishment than I think I've ever heard anyone do, so it's incredible that it's not a more well-known story out there.

01:17:24.935 --> 01:17:25.817
I think again.

01:17:25.817 --> 01:17:27.201
There's a couple of things.

01:17:27.201 --> 01:17:31.039
It's the time that social media wasn't.

01:17:31.039 --> 01:17:33.717
I have a McDonald's tattoo on the back of my arm.

01:17:33.717 --> 01:17:35.417
This is my sobriety tattoo.

01:17:35.417 --> 01:17:44.716
I've run across America tattoo and I've got a McDonald's logo tattoo in the back of my arm because I knew that if I saw the mcdonald's logo, I could get wi-fi.

01:17:44.716 --> 01:17:48.313
Yeah, it wasn't about the food, although I did eat loads of mcdonald's as well.

01:17:48.313 --> 01:17:53.654
It was about it was about wi-fi, yeah, and I could get data and I was able to upload to facebook.

01:17:53.654 --> 01:17:55.158
So facebook was all we had.

01:17:55.158 --> 01:17:55.942
Yeah, really.

01:17:55.942 --> 01:18:01.216
Um, instagram wasn't a thing and twitter, facebook and twitter were the two things that they did as much as they could.

01:18:01.216 --> 01:18:06.296
But the stigma attached to addiction and I'll keep coming back to that.

01:18:06.296 --> 01:18:14.478
Had I been running for my dead granny's cancer or my mum's cancer, I'd have raised a million quid.

01:18:14.550 --> 01:18:16.958
You'd have been on, lorraine and everything, I'd have been all over the news.

01:18:17.291 --> 01:18:27.320
But because we're doing it for people who apparently choose to destroy themselves, and that stigma attacks, and that's the bit that I I'm still so passionate about.

01:18:27.320 --> 01:18:32.921
Um, we need to change that perception of who we are as people.

01:18:32.921 --> 01:18:47.525
If you invest in us, if you take the time to listen to our story, if you help us deal with our trauma, if, if you help us deal with our substance misuse, we can be good individuals who will contribute to society.

01:18:47.525 --> 01:18:51.140
You know, and none of us should be given up on Absolutely.

01:18:52.753 --> 01:18:54.881
Now, Tom, it's been an incredible conversation.

01:18:54.881 --> 01:19:04.313
I like to end all our podcasts with a series of questions unrelated to what we've spoke about today, in honour and memory of James Lipton.

01:19:04.313 --> 01:19:08.261
So my first question for you is what's your favourite word?

01:19:08.261 --> 01:19:09.884
Serendipity?

01:19:09.884 --> 01:19:13.216
Least favourite word Trigger.

01:19:13.216 --> 01:19:15.641
Tell me something that excites you.

01:19:15.641 --> 01:19:18.012
Oh what?

01:19:18.073 --> 01:19:19.019
a great question.

01:19:19.019 --> 01:19:19.944
What excites me?

01:19:19.944 --> 01:19:20.729
Oh, what a great question.

01:19:20.729 --> 01:19:23.576
What excites?

01:19:23.716 --> 01:19:26.282
me, my children's future.

01:19:26.282 --> 01:19:33.585
Tell me something that doesn't excite you.

01:19:33.585 --> 01:19:36.274
Old age, what sound or noise?

01:19:36.373 --> 01:19:38.636
do you love?

01:19:38.636 --> 01:19:42.403
You know that shopping sound when you buy something with Apple Pay.

01:19:42.542 --> 01:19:43.323
I love that.

01:19:43.323 --> 01:19:48.399
What sound or noise do you hear Dogs barking at six in the morning?

01:19:51.091 --> 01:19:52.092
What's your favourite swear word?

01:19:52.092 --> 01:19:52.533
Am I allowed to?

01:19:52.533 --> 01:19:57.000
Say it Absolutely it's got to be a cunt.

01:19:57.000 --> 01:19:59.643
I don't know if I'm allowed to say that online.

01:19:59.722 --> 01:20:00.725
Of course you are.

01:20:00.725 --> 01:20:05.809
What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?

01:20:05.809 --> 01:20:14.425
Mp, what profession would you not like to do Judge?

01:20:14.425 --> 01:20:17.300
And lastly, you've talked a lot about your faith.

01:20:17.300 --> 01:20:20.087
What would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?

01:20:20.087 --> 01:20:21.315
A-hop song.

01:20:21.315 --> 01:20:21.524
Thank you so much for coming on.

01:20:21.524 --> 01:20:22.082
Believing People, tom.

01:20:22.082 --> 01:20:22.761
Faith what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?

01:20:22.761 --> 01:20:22.757
I hope so.

01:20:22.757 --> 01:20:24.855
Thank you so much for coming on.

01:20:24.855 --> 01:20:25.734
Believing People, tom.

01:20:25.734 --> 01:20:28.998
This has been an incredible conversation to have.

01:20:28.998 --> 01:20:29.760
Thank you so much.

01:20:29.760 --> 01:20:36.082
Thanks for having me, and if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believing People podcast, we'd love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful.

01:20:36.082 --> 01:20:38.818
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