#57 - Sarah Hicks (Part 1): Emotional Manipulation, Coercion, Self-Worth, Societal Stigma, Domestic Violence, Addiction, Trauma, Abuse, Codependency, Gaslighting, Generational Influences, Parenthood, Abandonment and Overcoming Adversity

Transcript

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This is a Renew Original Recording.

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Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a British podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma.

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My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host or, as Alex say, your facilitator.

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Today we have the first of a special two-part episode and we're joined by guest Sarah Hicks, a remarkable woman whose journey through trauma, addiction and recovery offers powerful insights into the realities of substance use, domestic abuse and personal transformation.

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In this two-part episode, sarah courageously shares her story of growing up with substance use, navigating abusive relationships and the profound impact of loss and grief.

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Her story is one of struggle, survival and, ultimately, strength.

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In this deeply honest conversation, sarah opens up about the cycles of addiction, the quest for love and connection and the turning points that have shaped her recovery.

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I begin the conversation by asking Sarah about her experiences with substances and how those experiences have shaped both her recovery and the work that she does today.

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That kind of started when I was 10 years old.

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Really, me and my friend, we went into recovery within two weeks of each other back in 2018.

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And we used to kind of steal hooch bottles off my mum and dad and we used to sit in the loft and drink them.

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And the loft wasn't like converted or anything so we could have fell through at any time and it just progressed and progressed.

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You know, that kind of almost natural progression of addiction went on to cannabis.

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Then, when I was 16, it was cocaine, um, and ecstasy and and things like that, and it just spiralled and spiralled.

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And I think you know I did it.

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When I look back, I always felt when I was young, I always felt a little bit different.

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I always felt very scared.

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I just didn't have any confidence whatsoever.

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And when I used to go to school I used to be petrified, like I remember walking to school and there were some girls at our school and they used to stop us and search us for cigarettes and things and I just used to let them do it.

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I was so frightened, I was so scared of like Hate or being, you know, being embarrassed in front of everybody.

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So I think as well, the more I drank smoked weed and whatever.

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It just gave me that confidence.

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You know to be who I thought I wanted to be you know, at the time and yeah, and I think that just went on and on and, like when I was 16, I was in a relationship with a woman and that's who I started taking cocaine with.

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And again, I just thought it was was like weekend stuff when I went out and whatnot.

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But then I came out of that relationship and got into another relationship and it was.

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It was very abusive, very, very abusive, and I didn't know that at the time.

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How old was you when you got into this abusive?

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relationship 17.

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Very, very young then isn't it?

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Yeah, when you say you don't understand, it's abusive because of that age.

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All these experiences are first-time experiences, so therefore they're quite you take them as normal because it's the first time experiencing them in some way.

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Yeah, Tell me a little bit about that then, or you take them as normal because it's the first time experiencing them in some way.

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Tell me a little bit about that then.

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So in 2003, I lost my granddad.

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He was poorly, he'd been poorly for years and it was.

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I didn't want to lose him, but it was a bit of a blessing in disguise.

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I didn't.

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When he went because he'd been poorly for so long.

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It was like he kind of needed to go.

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He'd had two heart attacks.

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He'd had about seven strokes mini strokes, big strokes.

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He'd just been so poorly for so long and I'd just kind of come out of this relationship with a woman because my parents wouldn't allow me to be in a relationship with a woman.

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So it kind of propelled me into this other relationship really and very quickly.

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Like there would be incidences where I would be out with him.

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And I remember specifically this night.

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I remember a lot of things, but you know when you remember specifics and we was on Holderness Road and we'd been on a night out and we was on the way home and we didn't live far from each other.

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So we was walking and a guy from across the road sat and went, sarah, and he like waved at me and I went all right, and I turned around and my partner at the time just went ooh, you slag.

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And he just used to say things like that to me all the time, called me awful, awful names, pros-age stuff, like that, and I just remember at the time, but I was just, I was so desperate for him to love me.

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I just, I just didn't.

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I just thought what can I do, what can I do?

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And I was like, oh, please don't, please don't.

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And I was crying and I was like like begging him.

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You know, please don't do this, please don't do this.

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And he just walked off and left me in the middle of like Udness Road.

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And I remember going home and I remember ringing his house phone and his mum picked up and I was like I don't know what's just happened, blah, blah, blah.

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And his mum said, oh, just wait, wait for him to wake up tomorrow, kind of thing.

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So and then I rang him because I was so desperate, like for, because he was like he's quite a well-known guy, like a lot of the girls wanted to be with him.

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I thought, oh, I've been such a geek at school, you know, I just I thought I'd made it you know, and I thought, god, somebody loves me, you know, somebody like that loves me and yeah, and things like that just happened all the time and I just constantly go back.

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And then I remember my friend I'll never forget her saying it to me.

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My friend, at the time she went, he does it because he loves you, he's just his head goes about, yeah, you know.

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So I thought, oh, my god, like, yeah, you know.

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So that that's what I thought.

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I thought it was because he loved me so much that, and also I was like I said I was, I was just desperate for him to love me and was was just going back to that, like the you know the incident you're talking there.

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Um, was that like the first type of abuse that you experienced with him, and was it the verbal abuse?

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And that it?

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started.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay yeah it's.

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Yeah, yeah, I can see.

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I completely understand what you know, where you're coming from with it and how we can.

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I'm interested how it escalated from that point as well, because from what I'm hearing there is you're feeling like you're in the wrong as well because you said hello to someone.

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It's almost like your friend has kind of justified the behavior.

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He's doing it because he loves you and that only do you know what I mean.

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It kind of just reaffirms it with you and in terms of the way that you was thinking anyway, which isn't healthy really in any respects how did it escalate from the verbal abuse and?

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Um, can I just ask was he older than you or was he the same age?

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because 17 is quite young for the eight years so he was eight years old, so I think at 25 they know exactly what they're doing as well with that, don't they?

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and, I think, my mum and dad.

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They were happy when I got in a relationship with them, but then they wouldn't let me be with a woman either.

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I was going to comment.

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There's the irony there to have that belief of not wanting to be with a woman but then being okay with you being in a relationship which clearly isn't.

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I know what.

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I'd rather for my daughter to be honest naturally Tell me a little bit more than how that behaviour escalated be honest, naturally, tell me a little bit more than how that behavior escalated so I mean, my mum and dad did try with him, um, and there were things that I didn't tell him.

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Um, you know, I remember being at his house one night and he'd he'd gone through my phone.

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It's like calling me, it's like push me out the side of the bed, you know there was loads.

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It started off like shoves and things like that and then when like he'd be drunk and things like that, it'd escalate even further.

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But it was always more around what he would say about me and like the jabs, like the jar you know the jars, like the bad words, the nasty words, the, you know, like I say, the prosy, you know the dyke I got dyke a lot, you know.

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Just all these really really hurtful words and like that kind of like control, just it kind of kept me with him really because I thought I already thought before I got with him, because I've done a lot of work around my childhood and stuff I already thought I was worthless, you know, and then I thought he was this big, powerful, like magnificent king, giant.

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There was no way that I was going to get any better than him, you know.

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So it was just so I stayed, but as well, um, I got caught pregnant and my mum and dad was absolutely devastated, um.

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But then I had a miscarriage, um.

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So yeah, it was really, really upsetting.

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At the time I was only 18, my head was all over.

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I was obviously in an abusive relationship, didn't know I'd, only a year ago, been told I wasn't allowed to be with a woman.

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You know just all these different things.

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I've been bullied at school.

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Just all this stuff kept constantly like slamming me down it feels like so many aspects of your life are under control by external.

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Yeah.

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Massively.

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You're just going to implode at that point, aren't you Getting it from all those different angles?

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Yeah, school peers, parents, relationships.

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Yeah.

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I can see that I watched me myself and Irene recently and do you know where he kind of implodes because he's being controlled by that many people.

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Yeah.

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I was.

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He kind of implodes because he's being controlled by that many people.

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Yeah, I was thinking about it the other day and I was thinking that was me, that was me.

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You know, I was just.

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I wanted to scream out, I wanted to, to have this voice, but I just had to be certain things to to certain people.

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So so many times you're playing a character to every single person.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like, even going back to the substance, misuse.

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It's a character.

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It's who you think you want to be, rather than this timid person at school being, you know, bullied by girls at the school gates, being the person that your parents want you to be, being the person that this you know boyfriend wanting you to be.

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Yeah, I can see how you'd want to implode, especially at that age, because it is such a they're pivotal years, I think.

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Finding yourself, you know, come as a teenager and then coming into it's real weird.

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I kind of feel like you at that point in your life, and for me especially, you feel like you're following a path and then suddenly you get to 16, 17 and you've gone from primary school to secondary school, where everything's laid out in front of you and then the road just comes to an end and you're in an open field and you don't know which way to go, and it's really pivotal time in your life where you're trying to find out okay, who am I, where do I go now?

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And you can't even really explore those because you are being controlled still in all these different areas.

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Yeah, that's heartbreaking yeah, and I didn't realize at the time, but I just had this big void and all I wanted was to be loved.

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That's all I wanted was to be loved.

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Did you not get love from your parents then?

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As a child, did you not feel loved by them?

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Where does that come from, this needing to be loved?

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I think, do you know what and I have been thinking about this recently as well my mum and my dad worked a lot of hours, a lot of hours like 12-hour shifts.

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I remember him being on shutdown for about I think it was a good solid two years, like six and a half days a week, you know, and he did a lot of training and stuff.

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And I remember like we'd be sat and we'd be watching the TV and my mum would go like I'd be shouting at my dad for ages I'd go Dad, dad, dad, dad, and he wasn't answering me and he used to do this thing where he used to like tickle his tash while he was watching the telly and in the end my mum would go Ronnie, like that, and he'd go what they're being shouting here?

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But he was knackered.

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He was absolutely knackered.

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And my mum, when I was young, she just she worked as well.

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She worked part-time up until I got a little bit older.

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She always wanted the perfect house, you know, and she wanted everything to be nice and clean and tidy, because that's how she'd been brought up yeah you know, and I was an only child and growing up, my dad had a previous marriage and they divorced and then obviously got one, got one my mum and he had a son who was my brother and we used to turn up a lot to go pick him up and he went there like his mum had sent him off fishing with his granddad or whatnot.

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And I used to see how gutted my dad used to be, because I used to be with him and all I wanted was my big brother.

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And then I'd kind of try telling my mum and I just don't think she got it and she'd be like oh well, you're all right, you know, it don't matter, you know, and I just remember, just absolutely craving God, I've got a big brother and I just wanted him.

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I wanted him in my life.

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Connection, isn't it really?

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Yeah, that sounds like something that you're striving for as a, as a child and even as a young adult.

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It's connection, isn't it really?

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yeah that's kind of what I'm seeing here absolutely, and it's really bizarre, though, because I've still got the same best friends as I had when I was four years old.

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Yeah, you know.

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But yeah, so I think you know a lot of it kind of came from that, because me and my brother we got in touch with each other in 2017 and we are in each other's lives now, and it's seven years we've been in each other's lives, but it still sometimes doesn't sink in with me that I've got a brother.

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It's really bizarre, and I think all these different things left that void in me which wanted that love, and you know, I had that miscarriage going back to when I was like 18.

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I had the miscarriage.

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I wanted to be pregnant again straight away, so I just carried on having sex unprotected.

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Yeah.

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And I eventually got pregnant again.

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Again, my mum and dad was absolutely devastated but they tried to kind of speak to, you know, speak to the guy who I was with at the time yeah, um, and kind of build a relationship.

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But that lasted a few months and it just took a nosedive again and I always kind of chose him over my parents because I was just I was desperate.

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And then I got to about 20 odd weeks pregnant and one night I'd gone back to the house and he didn't want me in the house it was our house and he threw a telly at me.

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It didn't hit me and stuff.

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And I remember ringing, my mum and dad screaming, crying, and my dad ran round and my dad was going to you know he was, yeah, and I just I remember thinking at the time, what's going on, what's going on?

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But I just the severity of it didn't register with me.

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I still felt like a child myself.

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And yeah, and they brought me away from him, but I'd go back.

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He'd ring me a week or two later, hiya, you all right, and kind of gaslight me about it.

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Oh, come on, it wasn't that bad.

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Just that constant gaslighting was just constant all the way through.

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So I'm a little bit today, still a little bit defensive.

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Do you?

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know if people like taking me seriously or I feel like they've just undermined me there, or they're not.

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They're undermining my feelings.

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That comes back for me.

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Yeah, you know that comes back for me today, um.

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So then, yeah, I went back, got back with, got back with the guy and there was a night, um, and he said he was just popping shop and he didn't.

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And I thought where is he?

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And I was with my friend at the time and I was 32 weeks pregnant and I stormed to the pub to find him and I went ballistic, I went crazy, I went mad and we came out of the pub and we went back to the house.

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Anyway, the argument stopped.

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But then, because my friend was in my house with me, he was accusing me of being a lesbian.

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You know, I'm having an affair, I'm doing this, I'm doing that.

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So everything kind of got a bit out of control and my friend was there and I tried kind of getting away from him and I slipped on the we had laminate flooring at the time and I fell to the floor and I think I was out for a little bit and my friend witnessed him kicking me in my stomach when I was 32 weeks a little bit, and my friend witnessed him kicking me in my stomach when I was 32 weeks pregnant.

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Jesus, yeah, and I just remember going.

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An ambulance came, we went off to the hospital and my dad was just devastated Like absolutely it was devastating for my mum, but I always remember my dad being just completely devastated and and they took me through and my dad, like they said you have to report this to the police now, because I'd never reported anything.

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Reported it to the police now because I'd never reported anything, reported it to the police, and there was an injunction out on him and I wasn't allowed to speak to him and whatever.

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And weeks went by and I was talking to my friend and I was like, oh, I miss him, miss him.

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So she was like why don't you ring him?

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Is this the same friend?

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yeah, I mean, it doesn't sound like a very good friend.

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I think at the time she was in the same place as I was okay, yeah you know, I, I do, I do believe that.

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Well, I know that yeah I know that makes a bit more sense now.

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Yeah, and I think it's that generational thing as well, matt, you know it's, I still see couples now, do you know?

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Just, let's just let's just not talk about, let's ignore it, you know, let's just let's move on, you know, and just everything will be all right, you know?

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And?

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And yeah, and he was like a bit apprehensive about speaking to me on the phone and I spoke to him and I was like I'll retract my statement.

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No, that wasn't what I said straight away.

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I was talking to him and he said like I'll retract my statement.

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No, that wasn't what I said straight away.

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I was talking to him and he said, oh well, you know, if I see, if, if I'm gonna see, yeah, I'm gonna need you to do this, but I tried to retract my statement, but the CPS had enough to take it forward.

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Yeah, um, because, they're gonna think you've been coerced into retracting your statement as well, aren't they?

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yeah, in some respects yeah, yeah, looking back, yeah, I think they did so.

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Yeah, but then it got to about.

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It was the day before I was no, it was my actual due date and I'd arranged to see him and I told my parents I was sleeping at a friend's house and I went to sleep at his house and like we did something and it brought kind of the birth on, and then I rang him and I said, you know, I wanted him to come to the hospital and my dad just went.

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My dad couldn't even be in the hospital while he was there.

00:21:22.250 --> 00:21:39.887
My mum stayed with me, even though they weren't talking, yeah, and then I had my daughter and I remember being in the hospital, bearing in mind I was only 19.

00:21:39.887 --> 00:21:48.686
And like my mum and dad didn't want to be there, do you know, while Lee was there and stuff, so they'd go and he'd come, and I remember the first day he went.

00:21:48.707 --> 00:22:03.574
Oh well, I'm off out to wet the baby's head, I can only stay about half an hour, an hour, and then he went off and then I didn't hear anything till the next day and it was just always like that.

00:22:03.574 --> 00:22:07.818
But that constant gaslighting as the what, why, why are you being like that?

00:22:07.818 --> 00:22:08.098
You know what?

00:22:08.098 --> 00:22:14.017
Oh, come on and and then, I'd get oh well, it's just a minute, that's just the way he is.

00:22:14.217 --> 00:22:28.234
And you know off off members of the family, off, you know off friends and and and whatnot excuses the behavior, doesn't it when you've got, and if it's the people around you that you trust as well, and you listen to those opinions, and you're like, oh okay, I get it now.

00:22:28.615 --> 00:22:32.723
Yeah, yeah but my dad, my dad always knew.

00:22:32.983 --> 00:22:42.726
My dad's position never, ever changed after that ever absolutely, I think, as a parent myself you know, know, and with a very, very young daughter.

00:22:42.726 --> 00:22:50.894
But I like to think that in some way you know that person that your daughter gets in a relationship with.

00:22:50.894 --> 00:22:59.586
That is the person that you are trusting to look after your daughter in your absence, when you're gone, whether that be you know physically not there or you know whatever.

00:22:59.586 --> 00:23:09.286
And if he's got no trust for that person and you wouldn't, based on what happened at such a young age, he's never gonna, you know, change his mind on that person.

00:23:09.286 --> 00:23:11.999
Was he aware of the assault and everything as well that happened?

00:23:12.220 --> 00:23:15.086
my dad, yeah, yeah yeah, I don't think he could.

00:23:15.086 --> 00:23:15.796
I couldn't come.

00:23:15.796 --> 00:23:20.576
But I know personally, if someone ever you know, I just won't be able to change my opinion on that person.

00:23:20.576 --> 00:23:23.425
So I completely understand why your dad was the way he was with him.

00:23:23.425 --> 00:23:27.579
That makes sense to me how long was you with him?

00:23:29.175 --> 00:23:30.500
On and off for 13 years.

00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:33.082
Wow, I'd split up with him for about three years.

00:23:33.242 --> 00:23:33.443
Yeah.

00:23:33.443 --> 00:23:36.221
And then you get back together and things like that?

00:23:36.221 --> 00:23:36.423
Yeah.

00:23:36.423 --> 00:23:38.742
What was the worst moment in that relationship?

00:23:38.742 --> 00:23:39.657
What would you say?

00:23:39.657 --> 00:23:45.001
The rock bottom of that relationship was Because, for this to happen, how old was your daughter when you broke up?

00:23:45.001 --> 00:23:45.122
Then?

00:23:45.122 --> 00:23:48.275
Was she 13 or 11, 11 yeah so do you know?

00:23:48.315 --> 00:23:50.022
I mean, this is all this that you did.

00:23:50.022 --> 00:23:56.805
This entire story so far has been up to the point of where she was born and there's a lot there already in such a short space of time.

00:23:56.805 --> 00:24:07.029
So for 11 years, I imagine, of similar things, as you've mentioned the, the coercive control, the verbal abuse, the physical abuse.

00:24:07.029 --> 00:24:13.663
What was the worst thing that happened within those 11 years before you eventually broke up with him?

00:24:18.076 --> 00:24:19.142
There was loads of things.

00:24:20.257 --> 00:24:22.324
I imagine there's not a single pinpoint or anything.

00:24:22.324 --> 00:24:26.577
I guess I'll tell you what I'll refer in my question a little bit.

00:24:26.577 --> 00:24:30.776
What was the moment then when you thought, fuck this, I can't be with this person anymore.

00:24:30.836 --> 00:24:35.980
Enough's enough right and then I was just going to start talking about.

00:24:35.980 --> 00:24:54.883
So it was 2016 and I didn't know this until my friends told me, but it knocked me unconscious.

00:24:54.883 --> 00:25:03.425
So throughout our relationship it was very codependent and we did drink together a lot and used together a lot.

00:25:05.976 --> 00:25:13.244
But that wasn't only when things were shit, you know, they always were.

00:25:13.244 --> 00:25:30.903
Every time we got back together it was like, oh yeah, let's get this house and we're going on these holidays and we're doing this and doing that, and slowly but surely I'd end up a quivering, anxious mess all over again, you know, and I still couldn't see it.

00:25:30.903 --> 00:25:40.720
And then one of my best friends she was just, she's an amazing person, Amazing person.

00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:43.762
She went and did the social work degree.

00:25:43.762 --> 00:25:47.303
We both went to uni I was 28, she was 29.

00:25:47.303 --> 00:26:06.584
And we went at the same time and she did the social work degree and she'd done some placement at CETDAP, She'd had a job at Purple House, so she'd been learning about this stuff and she could see, she'd started to see what was going on with me and it isolated me that bad again.

00:26:06.584 --> 00:26:10.645
There was only her who was willing to start coming.

00:26:10.645 --> 00:26:12.382
You know, carry on coming to my house.

00:26:12.474 --> 00:26:18.384
Everybody else was just a bit like, you know, or I'd just not really bother with people.

00:26:18.384 --> 00:26:32.845
And I remember this one night it'd been out, he'd not come home, been dossing wherever again, and I thought I've had enough.

00:26:32.845 --> 00:26:41.663
I've had enough and I'm not proud to say, but my daughter was there and he'd come in and he just got on the couch.

00:26:41.663 --> 00:26:46.603
This was a house that I was paying the rent for, which he refused to.

00:26:46.603 --> 00:26:48.982
That was another thing I used to have to stand.

00:26:49.434 --> 00:27:01.960
I remember being stood with a bank statement, having to go through it with a fine tooth comb, when I'd asked for some money towards the house and he was like, well, I pay for your holidays and all this stuff, but I was paying rent.

00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:05.344
He was renting his house out that he had a mortgage on.

00:27:05.344 --> 00:27:06.740
He had no rent to pay.

00:27:06.740 --> 00:27:12.682
Like I had to pay all the bills, you know, when he was away, because he worked away a lot.

00:27:13.355 --> 00:27:23.342
I had to pay for everything, you know, and yeah, and just all this stuff kept adding up, adding up and I was just so anxious I couldn't go to uni.

00:27:23.342 --> 00:27:25.343
I couldn't hardly go to uni anymore.

00:27:25.343 --> 00:27:27.521
I only just finished my degree.

00:27:27.521 --> 00:27:39.181
I was a quivering wreck and he'd come back, like I say, and I kicked him out and I was screaming.

00:27:39.181 --> 00:27:59.282
I was screaming for him to get out my house and a neighbour ended up coming round and he just pushed me and I'd flown across the kitchen floor and he went, and then the following morning I thought oh God, what have I done?

00:27:59.282 --> 00:28:01.046
Blame myself.

00:28:01.046 --> 00:28:02.969
Back to blaming yourself, it's all my fault.

00:28:03.695 --> 00:28:04.861
My daughter had her dad back.

00:28:04.861 --> 00:28:06.421
We were supposed to be going to Florida.

00:28:06.421 --> 00:28:08.441
You know, look what I've done again.

00:28:08.441 --> 00:28:13.926
And I rang him and he literally tore me to pieces.

00:28:13.926 --> 00:28:15.480
What would I want to be?

00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:18.304
A daft little thing like you know.

00:28:18.304 --> 00:28:19.676
What would I want to be?

00:28:19.737 --> 00:28:21.320
with a daft little girl like you.

00:28:21.320 --> 00:28:25.030
You're a little girl, you're a little girl, you're a little girl.

00:28:25.030 --> 00:28:32.073
You're a slag, you're this, you're that and whatnot.

00:28:32.073 --> 00:28:33.824
Yeah, and I got off the phone and I rang my friend and I went I don't know what I'm going to do.

00:28:33.824 --> 00:28:35.018
I don't know what I'm going to do.

00:28:35.018 --> 00:28:37.285
And she'd stayed really reserved around it all.

00:28:37.285 --> 00:28:39.195
I went I don't know what I'm going to do without him.

00:28:39.195 --> 00:28:40.176
What don't know what I'm going to do without him.

00:28:40.176 --> 00:28:40.698
What am I going to do?

00:28:40.698 --> 00:28:41.137
What am I going to do?

00:28:41.137 --> 00:28:43.701
She went Sarah, what have you done all your life?

00:28:43.701 --> 00:28:45.282
She said you've always come through.

00:28:45.282 --> 00:28:47.484
She said, and she tried talking to me.

00:28:47.484 --> 00:28:52.490
And then in the end she went Sarah, you need, I need to tell you now.

00:28:52.490 --> 00:28:54.711
And she talked everything through me.

00:28:54.711 --> 00:29:02.942
And I remember specifically I was on the phone 75 minutes and that 75 minutes changed my life, and 75 minutes changed my life and she went through everything.

00:29:03.002 --> 00:29:13.202
She showed me the domestic abuse cycles and she explained everything to me and it just twigged so she knew when the right time was to do it, because if she'd have done it before, you wouldn't have listened.

00:29:13.202 --> 00:29:15.181
And I'd have probably backed away from her.

00:29:15.321 --> 00:29:15.663
Yeah, yeah.

00:29:16.075 --> 00:29:19.220
And isolated away from her Because I did with my parents.

00:29:19.220 --> 00:29:24.318
Yeah, you know, but like yeah, I did with my parents.

00:29:24.318 --> 00:29:26.344
Yeah, you know, um, but like yeah, and it just.

00:29:26.344 --> 00:29:28.829
And that's when I knew.

00:29:29.351 --> 00:29:31.923
I knew I had to go away and I and I went.

00:29:31.923 --> 00:29:33.471
I went and slept at a friend's house.

00:29:33.471 --> 00:29:52.214
I think I was there about three nights and all I did was drink from morning till night, morning till night, um, and while I was, while I was away at a friend's, he'd put like a big garage shed in my back garden and he'd just torn it down and took the stuff without waiting for me to come and take it.

00:29:52.214 --> 00:30:04.270
So all all my belongings was just all over my garden, just the lot, and yeah, and I just I knew, I knew, I knew that had to be it.

00:30:04.675 --> 00:30:06.423
I just I knew that had to be it.

00:30:06.423 --> 00:30:17.144
And then there was just more gaslighting, more abusive behaviour, and in the end I had to come to the decision where, after all them years, I had to stop my daughter from seeing him.

00:30:17.144 --> 00:30:26.122
I had to because she'd literally my daughter hadn't spoken to me properly for about six months and she was 11.

00:30:26.122 --> 00:30:26.943
Yeah.

00:30:26.943 --> 00:30:30.864
You know, and that is not normal.

00:30:30.864 --> 00:30:35.945
That is not normal for an 11-year-old not to want to go to her mum.

00:30:35.945 --> 00:30:36.407
Yeah.

00:30:38.617 --> 00:30:39.561
It was just so.

00:30:39.561 --> 00:30:45.183
So had he been saying things to your daughter about you then to get her on his side, sort of thing?

00:30:45.183 --> 00:30:46.661
You know you talk about the coercion.

00:30:46.661 --> 00:30:51.443
If you can be manipulated, how easy will it be to manipulate an 11-year-old child?

00:30:52.135 --> 00:31:03.420
What he was very clever at doing was if I tried to discipline Christina, or like, he'd wrap her up in his arms and it'd be oh, come on.

00:31:03.500 --> 00:31:05.561
Dan yeah, I've not done anything wrong.

00:31:05.855 --> 00:31:07.561
Doing everything for her.

00:31:07.561 --> 00:31:14.122
You know they would sit and debate what she was going to have for her dinner for about an hour and a half.

00:31:14.122 --> 00:31:16.327
I didn't have that type of time.

00:31:16.327 --> 00:31:28.824
I was at uni, I was DJing, you know, to try and earn some money, because I didn't get any help with the house, and I was constantly, constantly, constantly on demand, constantly, all the time.

00:31:28.824 --> 00:31:41.897
Um, yeah, and it was just, it was just, it was just awful it was just awful so you talk about the, the substance misuse as well.

00:31:41.919 --> 00:31:43.315
You talk about how you use together.

00:31:43.315 --> 00:31:51.666
I imagine that throughout this relationship and because of the abuse, you're finding escapism in substances and obviously you're using together as well.

00:31:51.666 --> 00:31:55.439
So it's not just escapism, it's almost bonding.

00:31:55.439 --> 00:31:58.928
It's codependency, as, as you know, as you've described it in the past.

00:31:58.928 --> 00:32:05.887
Talk to me a little bit about the, about codependency.

00:32:05.887 --> 00:32:06.188
Do you know?

00:32:06.188 --> 00:32:10.546
You've said here that, um, I've got a quote from you saying codependency is the root of all addictions.

00:32:10.546 --> 00:32:21.799
Now we haven't gone too much into your addictions here, but without even talking about it, I can completely understand how addictions to substances are occurring throughout this entire 11 you know, 13 year relationship that you've had.

00:32:23.782 --> 00:32:31.096
Talk to me a little bit about codependency so I've done a lot of work on it over the last 18 months.

00:32:31.096 --> 00:32:49.430
I wasn't aware it was something like I suffered with um, but what I've learned is, through kind of adverse childhood experiences, the trauma kind of leads to feeling like there's something missing.

00:32:50.570 --> 00:33:10.616
You know I've talked a lot about throughout this podcast that gap, that void and I've just always wanted to fill that, and for me it was people.

00:33:10.616 --> 00:33:14.434
But then it was also drugs and I I believe that that's why it's the root of all addictions, because when you codependent, you feel you have that void and you try to fill it.

00:33:14.434 --> 00:33:18.884
People fill it with gambling, people fill it with people, people fill it with sex.

00:33:18.884 --> 00:33:22.821
You know what, whatever, where, food, whatever works for them.

00:33:22.821 --> 00:33:32.720
You know, and it's that feeling of wanting to feel whole.

00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:41.651
You know, I, as well as that one relationship I was in and out of abusive relationships I would literally be with him.

00:33:41.651 --> 00:33:49.223
We'd split up, I would get with somebody because I went out with people who had drugs, you know so.

00:33:49.403 --> 00:34:10.106
You're always going to be with people where there are going to be some instability and some you know trauma that's going to be projected onto yourself as well yeah I'm not saying that you, you, you've, you know these things, but to go from and you're not the only person who's experienced this but to go from one unhealthy relationship to multiple unhealthy relationships.

00:34:10.106 --> 00:34:15.563
Why do you think that happens, whether it be your own experiences or with people in general?

00:34:15.563 --> 00:34:18.565
Why do you think they can move from one unhealthy relationship to another?

00:34:18.565 --> 00:34:32.465
Because I think, when we talk about probability, the chance of being with someone who's abusive and then your next relationship being abusive and your next relationship being abusive don't get me wrong, the chance is still high, but it's also quite slim.

00:34:32.465 --> 00:34:41.876
At the same time, there's something about the people, as you said, people who are, you know, using drugs as well, and being attracted to those people.

00:34:41.876 --> 00:34:47.989
Why that pattern is kind of happening, but why do you think you was attracted to those people?

00:34:48.536 --> 00:35:00.016
because it's what was familiar to me yeah, it's all you'd known sort of thing all I'd known from being a kid and would you say that you those relationships, whilst they was abusive, they felt normal to you?

00:35:00.016 --> 00:35:08.766
Yeah, so every relationship that you went in that just felt like this is what a relationship is yeah, if I was with anybody, nice, I didn't want to know how.

00:35:08.806 --> 00:35:16.449
Come well, the work I've done on myself, I've come to realize I don't think I deserved it.

00:35:16.449 --> 00:35:20.061
Okay, um, and it didn't feel familiar to me.

00:35:21.184 --> 00:35:23.108
So it was about familiarity and things like that.

00:35:28.514 --> 00:35:36.364
I remember going out with a guy when I was about 16 and it was the only boyfriend that my dad ever liked and it was amazing.

00:35:36.364 --> 00:35:38.221
And do you know what?

00:35:38.221 --> 00:35:45.376
Like he's married and stuff now and I'm in a you know, a really healthy, loving relationship now.

00:35:45.376 --> 00:35:55.222
But, like, as I got older, I thought like that's how I should have been that was the fork in the road, sort of thing.

00:35:55.222 --> 00:35:56.706
Yeah that that was.

00:35:56.706 --> 00:36:05.025
You know, that was the type of person I should have been with yeah you know, but it but it didn't.

00:36:06.266 --> 00:36:26.628
It wasn't familiar to me and I think, because I'd got away, when I'd first going back, when I'd first got away from the guy who I was with on and off for years, I lost my dad really suddenly when I was 22.

00:36:26.628 --> 00:36:41.423
And my dad was my life, he was my hero, he was my saviour, he was my everything and that just absolutely floored me.

00:36:41.423 --> 00:36:49.708
And that just absolutely floored me and I'd used previously, but I'd never used to blackout ever.

00:36:53.114 --> 00:36:58.387
You know, I was a bit of an animal, a bit of a party animal, but I knew when to put it down, do you know?

00:37:04.735 --> 00:37:13.184
and that is when that massive trauma completely just wiped me out, because it was very sudden.

00:37:13.184 --> 00:37:15.414
I got a phone call to say he was being rushed to hospital.

00:37:15.414 --> 00:37:18.724
I got to the hospital and he was dead.

00:37:18.724 --> 00:37:20.856
And he was dead.

00:37:20.856 --> 00:37:30.608
And that night changed my life like forever.

00:37:30.608 --> 00:37:31.690
Forever.

00:37:31.690 --> 00:37:41.956
And that's when I started drinking to blackout and that's when I completely stopped caring about myself.

00:37:41.956 --> 00:37:52.927
And you know, looking back I'd always felt kind of like abandoned because I had this void.

00:37:52.927 --> 00:38:03.753
So when people left codependency, you know, if somebody leaves, even when you want them to leave, it still feels like a massive gap.

00:38:03.753 --> 00:38:06.289
So you feel like you want them back, even though you don't.

00:38:07.300 --> 00:38:10.530
There's something missing something missing deep down inside.

00:38:11.141 --> 00:38:13.898
And you think them coming back will fill that void sort of thing.

00:38:13.898 --> 00:38:14.179
Yeah.

00:38:14.179 --> 00:38:20.768
Despite what behaviour they project onto yourself in terms of the abuse, whether it be verbal, physical.

00:38:21.047 --> 00:38:21.891
Yeah, okay.

00:38:21.891 --> 00:38:39.791
And then after that I didn't feel like I had a protector anymore, because for me I'd been that little girl who watched loads of Disney films and the man always comes and saves you and all this stuff, and I never thought I could save myself, even though I have done.

00:38:40.041 --> 00:38:41.606
And I know that I can do that now.

00:38:42.047 --> 00:38:42.769
I didn't know that.

00:38:42.769 --> 00:38:47.510
So I thought, you know that's what my dad was there for.

00:38:47.510 --> 00:38:52.891
So when he went I just felt completely abandoned.

00:38:52.891 --> 00:39:13.449
Yeah, it's literally like I've had a lot of bad things happen in my life, but I'd say up until like this year it's been absolutely the worst me losing my dad Like there aren't even words to describe it.

00:39:13.449 --> 00:39:22.965
And if I could literally have one wish in the world, it would be to bring him back.

00:39:22.965 --> 00:39:46.871
Even now, like I still miss him every day now, and it's like and as a codependent, that's really difficult, you know, not being able to have somebody there who you're desperately, desperately craving for and knowing that he can never come back.

00:39:48.202 --> 00:39:54.992
And it was just the biggest shock of my life because he was quite a young looking guy.

00:39:54.992 --> 00:39:59.851
We thought he was fit, he had heart disease and we didn't know, just start suddenly of a heart attack.

00:39:59.851 --> 00:40:16.436
He was unconscious and it's one of them things that you see on the TV and you never ever in this life think it would ever happen to you.

00:40:16.436 --> 00:40:23.469
You know my dad was this big, strong, invincible guy who sorted everything, everything.

00:40:23.469 --> 00:40:27.601
You know he paid for the house, he paid for the bills, he made sure.

00:40:27.601 --> 00:40:29.849
You know he trained me at running as I was growing up.

00:40:29.849 --> 00:40:31.746
You know he did, did every.

00:40:31.786 --> 00:40:56.630
You know it was like my mom's husband and you know, and he sounds like as well, for for a long period of your life he's been the only healthy male figure in that life as well yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, and I had, I had my granddad, but I him, and then I had an uncle I was really close to and then I lost him to alcohol in 2015.

00:40:56.630 --> 00:41:08.365
So that was difficult as well and I think I kind of like, yeah, I felt so much pressure because I'd just lost my dad.

00:41:08.365 --> 00:41:10.166
My daughter was two years old.

00:41:10.166 --> 00:41:12.817
Just all the pressure.

00:41:12.817 --> 00:41:13.284
You know, I was worried about my mum.

00:41:13.284 --> 00:41:13.297
I'd just lost my dad.

00:41:13.297 --> 00:41:13.447
My daughter was two years old.

00:41:13.447 --> 00:41:13.561
Just all the pressure.

00:41:13.659 --> 00:41:15.106
You know, I was worried about my mum.

00:41:15.106 --> 00:41:16.224
I moved in with my mum.

00:41:16.224 --> 00:41:18.940
I'm not going to say that was totally selfless.

00:41:18.940 --> 00:41:25.807
I think I just wanted to get myself back on track as well, because I wasn't perfect at the time, a little bit behind in rent and stuff like that.

00:41:25.807 --> 00:41:30.824
So I can't say I fully did it for my mum, because that would have lying.

00:41:30.864 --> 00:41:35.153
I suppose I wanted to be with my mum, but that didn't last long.

00:41:35.153 --> 00:41:36.867
It was three months and she'd had enough of me.

00:41:36.867 --> 00:42:00.014
So, yeah, I'd had to find somewhere to live, because over the years, mine and my mum's relationship it's been difficult because she's got her beliefs, I've got my beliefs because, she's got her beliefs, I've got my beliefs and I think losing a parent I know it's not as young as some people, but I don't think it matters at what age that happens.

00:42:00.380 --> 00:42:09.373
Yeah, it was just yeah, it was just one of them things you never, ever think is going to happen to you Like ever.

00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:11.326
And you always think they're going to be around forever as well.

00:42:11.326 --> 00:42:13.675
Think that's a natural thing is, and I do it now.

00:42:13.675 --> 00:42:16.324
It probably took my parents for granted in some respect.

00:42:16.324 --> 00:42:20.268
Maybe I should pick up the phone and ring my dad a little bit more, but in my head I've got plenty of time.

00:42:20.268 --> 00:42:27.132
He's always going to be there, yeah but, you have these conversations and, much like your experience, you never know what's around the corner, do you?

00:42:28.161 --> 00:42:28.742
you do.

00:42:28.742 --> 00:42:36.670
But also on the flip side, I think through doing the codependency work you do need like, I've realised I need to do what's right for me.

00:42:36.670 --> 00:42:52.762
Today I've adapted to worrying about everybody else, you know, and it was kind of all for selfish reasons because it was fulfilling something within me, but it's.

00:42:53.302 --> 00:43:05.592
I can't blame myself because it's just a way I'd adapted to living it's a way I'd adapted to surviving Was, if I do this for this person, I'm going to be in their good books.

00:43:05.592 --> 00:43:06.945
You know, they're going to be in my life.

00:43:06.945 --> 00:43:17.311

#57 - Sarah Hicks (Part 1): Emotional Manipulation, Coercion, Self-Worth, Societal Stigma, Domestic Violence, Addiction, Trauma, Abuse, Codependency, Gaslighting, Generational Influences, Parenthood, Abandonment and Overcoming Adversity

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